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Tommy Chong released from prison
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sibannac
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommy should move to the uk and open a hydroponics and headshop he'd have to give me a job there though.
Two guess's what i want the delivery van made from mmmmmmm.
Anyway he's free!!
so just for tommy appearing once again yes you've got it it's the dancing banana troupe!!! banana banana banana banana
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kytaira
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose so, but what of the other shop owners who just rolled over also? I hear no comments on them.....No jail sentances, nothing. Just Tommy, Tommy, Tommy.

Well He had the hardest fight of them all, He's a celebrity and someone the governement will hope to "take down" in the public eye to scare the rest of the general public into submission. It's easy to blame someone else for the problems the US government has, but seriously, with the patriot act in legal standing, and Bush running rampart over the rest of the world as he see's fit, why would Tommy really believe he'd win his case?
Did your wife and children appreciate your time in jail for thier eventual freedoms? Was there a celebration of happiness when you got locked up? Did you miss the family that you could only visit maybe once a week, if the prison's decided that you were "good" enough to deserve a visitation. As it is not a garaunteed right (the visists). Did your being jailed make any diference to your governments eventual desicions to become more lenient, did it serve a purpose at all? Would you have taken the fall for your child or wife, or would you let them fall and go to prison even if you had the means to keep them out? I know when I was in Jail, it sucked being away from my family like that. I never want my family to go to jail for anything that I can say was "my responsibility". I dunno, maybe in Amsterdam it's ok to incarcerate your own family for a pride issue? Hell even in Canada that's a messed up theory.
I'm sure Tommy Chong has seen more people go to jail on cases they SHOULD have easily won, and didn't than he needed. The win was never garaunteed, and this way keeping his family out of prison was.
People here in North America fought feircely through-out the 60's, and 70's, (It's not just a Holland thing)only to constantly have their government slap them back down. (Obviously, however, your government decided to buckle to the masses, as they should have, but did not do in the states) It took black people and women in the states decades upon decades of fighting and riots just to get the right to vote! The US government is a government of prudes, who will never allow their people the absolute freedoms they were once given.
It's not that they don't want to fight for their rights, but there's only so many decades one person can fight through before other's need to take up that battle. It's not however the place for a father to put his wife and son in jail simply because someone wanted him to fight it out. The other's who were arrested in the same operation as Chong did no real fighting either. And it's just going to get harder there too! lol

Oh yeah.......Every Government is different than that of the United States...lol even the canadian government....lol.

But to Judge the man for his Obligations as a father, that's messed up. It might not have been what you or I "say" we would have done, but not being in his shoes we don't really know. It's easy to judge him on this, but unless you are an American Citizen and can truely understand the threat of the US government breathing down and scrutinizing every move your whole family makes....
I don't remeber the holland government ever assassinating one of their own leaders, faking a moon landing to win a "cold war", invading a foriegn country simply because they thought it was right, or even spending billions a year on a "Drug War". I dunno maybe I just don't read the right papers, or maybe your government IS that much different.......


Rev. Anthony
edit// Yes, I understand that. How long did it take? Remember the african american poulance of the states? It took them hundreds of years to get ANY rights in that country. Why would it take less fighting for drug users?
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here are some pictures of how we have gotten our rights, and still get them if needed:











Don't think we don't know police brutality and every other trick in politicians book but as I have stated many times before, we outnumber them and all you need to do is show them to get your rights and don't let yourself be intimidated.

These are pictures made in Amsterdam, we used to have confrontations all the time untill our government smartened up. They don't show you this in America do they? All you know is that we are "tolerant" and have "liberal laws". what you guys don't realise is THEY DON'T COME EASY.

BTW, we had a political assasination a few years ago. The people RAIDED the government buildings in The Hague that day and nearly set them on fire, again, none of this was reported outside Holland except that fact that he was killed.

Our country would have the same laws as America, Germany, France, and all other countries if it was not for the fact that we fight back if we are pushed and if we would have been "sentimental" there's no way we would have had our freedom as we know it. It's a lot easyer anyway to come here and exercise your freedom instead of getting it yourself in your own country, our city is crawded with Americans and all other nationalities all year long who love our way of life without realising they could have it also.

As for Tommy Chong's family, they didn't mind the money from that business did they? I understand his son was working in his company too so I guess he made that choise, or did Tommy force him?

We Dutch say : "Samen uit, samen thuis". and has everything to do with just that, it's about sticking together in the good but also in the bad times. It's about sharing the good and the bad and backing eachother up against anyone who F**cks us, including those we pay to manage our country.

This is what made us what we are today, I too remember a time when I was told "they could arrest my wife" to force me to cooperate and confess I was "guilthy", this is not exclusively American but very common in any justice system on this planet.

This is just my personal opinion, anyone who likes Tommy Chong is free to do so and I understand he is a hero for many people.. just not for me.

Politicians try the same methods everywhere on earth but you don't see them succeed everywhere on earth do you? Wonder why!!
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kytaira
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Offense man. But seriously, do a search and find pics of the watts riots or the Rodney King Riots, and various other acts of independance by the black folk in the usa. Many of them are as violent as those and were just as frequent if not more so.......I'm not saying that you guys did not fight for your freedoms, just that your government smartened up much faster than the US government ever has. Seriously, it still took African Americans the better part of what, say 400 years, to get the "freedoms" they have now. And What freedoms they are too! It's gonna take the drug user's a much, much, much longer war against the government to get their freedoms. It's just the way the US gov. works unfortunately. It will happen some day, just not any time soon!

Rev. Anthony
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our govenment smartened up because they had no choise but give us our rights or start building jails for all of us. We were not giving in and we never will. Not all of us are willing to fight, but at least down here there's enough of us that do and this makes all the difference.

Do you have any idea how we think about a nation that has this big mouth about "bringing freedom to the world" while their population does not even know how this freedom really feels? For most of us American freedom is a sad joke. How can you claim to defend something you don't have?

Ever bought a second hand car? Laughing
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Rev. Chazman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferre wrote:

Man, I guess Americans only know about 'fighting for your rights' from television and only feel brave with a loaded gun in their hands.

Do you have any idea of the impact a trial with Tommy's whole family for this ridiculous charges would have had on the international community and the press? I am convinced that Tommy would have won but he choose to let himself be intimidated.

I'm sorry but we don't get intimidated that easy and we also do not let our politicians and even judges get away with that kind of crap. But then again, that's why we are free here and Americans get pissed on all the time. It's an attitude difference.


I see clearly now what your opinion of Americans is. I thought you to be a more open minded individual. I see now that I was wrong.

"Man, I guess Americans only know about 'fighting for your rights' from television and only feel brave with a loaded gun in their hands."

That is such an insulting and bigoted statement that I cant believe you wrote it. A week ago id have bet money that Ferre would never utter such prejudiced rhetoric. Yet here it is.

"I am convinced that Tommy would have won but he choose to let himself be intimidated."

You already said earlier that you maybe didn’t know all the facts in his case and the pressures they were placing on him... Yet you are CONVINCED he would have won. I’ve heard the story about what happened from his an interview with his wife, and from private chats that were recorded with him before he went in. Did you hear these interviews?

If you don’t have all the facts, how can you insult and ridicule Tommy. And even more, insult and ridicule all Americans as spineless, gun toting, pseudo-activists who get their activism queue from watching TV? That’s a slap in the face of all of us doing what we can everyday. People have lost their freedoms and life itself here, and continue to do so. Shame on you.

Are we weak because we don’t burn down buildings all the time and attack police on every corner? Well its been done, maybe there is a better way... But we aren’t any less than "your people", believe me. I make the distinction of "your people" only because you seem to have done so first. Pointing out your superiority over us weak Americans as you do.

WOW. I have really had my eyes opened today. At first I just thought you didn’t have all the facts in Tommy’s case, and made a wrong conclusion. But now it looks like your opinion of Americans as a whole is a lot worse than I thought.

I feel very sad today. I have to re-evaluate what I thought was true about people. Where I used to feel part of a strong THC community, I now question the foundations of that community.

Yes, I feel very sad today...

Peace Crying or Very sad
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if you feel this way Chaz, there are many American individuals who I highly respect and have very long and dear frendships with. This does not change my political points of view, or my principles I have towards "people in general".

If you want to know, I can't understand how "the American people" with all their big talk about "freedom" can let their own government get away with intimidating them for the last 30 years. And yes, my thoughts on "Americans" in general are not fairly positive and is due to the fact that everything rotten I have been fighting against the past 25 years are things that are done with support from the American people, and coming from "America". "The war on drugs" being only one of them but when it comes down to pointing out who is really responcable for a nation's actions, the people and their attitude, I seem to be wrong.

My remark about "Man, I guess Americans only know about 'fighting for your rights' from television and only feel brave with a loaded gun in their hands." is a general one and is what I have seen from "the general public" in the States the past 25 years, sorry.

I know there are many brave induviduals in America and I know there are a lot of people that do not agree with the administration's crap as well and thinking I would "hate Americans" is not right because I don't.

Do I think "Americans" could have more control on their government if they wanted to? Yes. Chaz, "Americans" can be loud if you know what I mean, please understand that I look at Americans from my Dutch point of view, we would have legalized drugs, and regulated them already years ago if it wasn't for US pressure on ours and other European countries. US pressure happens by governments representing their people in my book. Look at all the anti Michael Moore going on right now, it reflects what I talk about. If Americans wouldn't be so ignorant every other "American" (like you and many others) would have a far better life. Those ignorant ones are the "Americans" I refere to when you have the feeling I might not like all of you. But it is those ignorant ones who always have a big mouth about "freedom" and "justice" and those are srewing it up for you also Chaz. If they would only wake up and get off their butt and at least support the ones who do fight to get it better it would make all the difference, down here we don't know any better then that and that's why we have our freedom here.

True, I did not see any of the interviews, I did not know about the exact details on why Tommy pleaded guilthy but I did read the ridiculous charges and no celebrety AND his family would be convicted for this in a proper trial with all the world watching in my opinion, it would have been an excellent opportunity to show the world how crazy Ashcroft&co really are. Instead it became the symbol of their getting away with everything they want.

I might be a little harsh on Tommy and I might be someone who doesn't think much about the general American public but think of it this way, how much influence does Dutch policy have on your daily life? Imaging that every day life is influenced with Dutch wars on whatever possible and your tax money is used to help the Dutch government fight wars that are in fact against you, year after year, how would you feel? Imagine the "war on drugs" and the "war on terrorists" being Dutch wars, just imagine how you would feel about it when your daily life is dictated by events that you don't want to have anything to do with but is forced upon you because of Dutch power. Just try to imagine for a second. I know my view can be blurred sometimes.

I can imagine very good and rational reasons why Tommy, and his wife and son would not have been convicted in a real trial, for one, they had a perfectly legit busyness making pipes before the paraphanelia law came in place. Second, they had received no official notice whatsoever that the nature of their busyness and the laws according had changed, in fact the laws where activated only few days before they started the raids on those busynesses and the raids were in preparation in the same time they were preparing those laws, just to be quick enough to get them. I'm not a lawyer or a judge but anyone can see this isn't right. But we will never know will we.

One thing is for sure, this whole affaire is tragic, for Tommy, his family and the whole cannabis using community.
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Slide
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferre wrote:

I might be a little harsh on Tommy and I might be someone who doesn't think much about the general American public but think of it this way, how much influence does Dutch policy have on your daily life? Imaging that every day life is influenced with Dutch wars on whatever possible and your tax money is used to help the Dutch government fight wars that are in fact against you, year after year, how would you feel? Imagine the "war on drugs" and the "war on terrorists" being Dutch wars, just imagine how you would feel about it when your daily life is dictated by events that you don't want to have anything to do with but is forced upon you because of Dutch power. Just try to imagine for a second. I know my view can be blurred sometimes.



I have noticed for some time that you have a certain view of Americans. It is one of the reasons I seldom post.

It is not an uncommon view around the world. Personally I wish we would stay to our borders and leave the rest of the world alone. Humanitarian aid is needed in our own country. Let's take care of ourselves first. We could do so much good within our borders with the aid we give and even more with the money we spend on the military.

We could do a better job of assisting the many people that immigrate here fleeing other countries.

We can change some of that by exercising our right to vote, joining Political Action Committees and continuing to support the court cases and people fighting them.

I love America. I like most of the people I meet here. They do not all agree with me but they have that right.

Just as you have the right to dislike or have disdain for America and Americans.

It does sadden me that you and others feel this way because of my love of my country, our people, and the diversity we have.

I must be one of those dumb Americans. So be it.

As I understand the statement above part of your feeling about America relates to your government caving in to pressure from the American government.

If that is truly the case then start a revolution. Overthrow the government or begin the violence that your pictures depict and change it. It will of course affect your family. But isn't it a spineless man that puts family first?

For me, protecting my family is my first priority. That is the importance I place on my family. I would die for them. I would kill for them. And I would go to jail for them. Call me spineless. It's okay.

So we are not rioting in the streets over cannabis.

We are trying to change things here. We are trying to do it peacefully without our guns. We are leaving them at home. We are trying to work within the system and change the laws. We may fail miserably. I hope we do not.

Everyday we risk more than you in the pursuit and practice of our beliefs because here it is still against the law. We have more risk because your country DOES have a more enlightened approach.

I applaud you for your efforts in making that come to pass and the risk you took. I admire the strength of your convictions.

Your way may be the only way. I am glad that there are countries, such as yours, that have made the right choices with regard to cannabis.

But please don't judge us cowards because we think differently than you. Please don't judge us because our approach is less violent than yours. Violence may be the answer. It apparently worked for you.

I hope we can do it another way.
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No dear Slide, it was not violence that brought us our freedoms, and it was not for cannabis either that we had, and still have our way of showing our government they work for us and not the other way around.

there was not much violence needed to show our administration who they work for, and there are compared with other countries not that much people who use cannabis here at all, what it IS about is freedom to live the life you want, we don't need babysitters to rule us, that is what it's about.
Also, the influence from America goes a little deeper then only our government caving (as little as possible) in to pressure from the American government. Only the fact that this pressure exists is dead wrong but there's are also invironmental issues that effect the whole world.

what it really comes down to is indeed I feel America is a beautifull country and indeed Americans are in general, when you meet them very nice people, I have been to the States on several occasions and I know this but what I also know is that the American people outnumber their leaders with millions and when they really stand up they can make changes. I try to help in that process and believe me if I didn't like Americans and America I wouldn't care less.

All I know is how to do it, it's attitude, the they can't put us ALL in jail attitude we have.

I found a quote from Kathryn Lemmon, a travel writer residing in Bloomington, (IN) who visited our country and noticed what I really mean.

Kathryn Lemmon wrote:
As we walked back, the word "attitudes" kept sticking in my head. Whether it's marijuana or prostitution, the Dutch have a straightforward, no-nonsense attitude. I found this both strangely refreshing and disturbing at the same time. Though we are all the same under the skin, our attitudes can make a world of difference.


That's what I try to explain, to be truely free you need a straightforward, no-nonsense attitude. It's not about cannabis, drugs, prostitution, abortion, mixed marriage or any other thing that is legal here and no where else even though we might not even smoke weed, do drugs, want to marry someone from the same sex, agree with abortion or prostitution or whatever people can do in our country without being criminalized, it's our general freedom and the freedom of our neighbours and family we care about and if Americans would have that same attitude they would be as free as we are.
straightforward, no-nonsense attitude is what it takes to be truely free, well, it is what it takes here and it's the only place I know of with our kind of freedom.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"straightforward, no-nonsense attitude is what it takes to be truely free"

ain't that the truth bro! Smile

attitude/approach/belief ..call it what you want. it makes all the difference.

and for what its worth i'm with the Dali Lama on the differing peoples of the world. he says that basically we are all the same in that;
we all want to be happy and free from suffering.

everything else is just surface detail/temporary/illusionary

God bless Tommy Chong, everyone in the US and everywhere else.

Peace and y'all have a nice day and come back real soon. Very Happy Very Happy
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Dankdude
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferre, I think I need to point out the error of your thinking when it comes the approach that was taken according to the photos that you posted.

Back in the 1960's we took that approach in an anti-war protest.
What happened was the Kent State University shootings.

Many were wounded, 4 died.
Being a person who has served my country, I think it's a direct insult.
Maybe we don't have legal cannabis here, but we do have freedoms.

The Patriot Act is nothing but Maritime Law enacted.
We have congressmen and senators who have taken up the torch for the Medical Marijuana cause, but those in office (not just the current administration) but those who represent us in both houses have gotten too comfortable in their jobs.

Many don't know that there is a provision within the US Constitution that is called a peaceful assembly of constituents.
In essence what it says that delegates form each district can walk into the halls of congress and the senate and basically fire those who were are dissatisfied with.

You may be right in some respects about us Americans, many are too lazy to get off their butts and do something about it.

But you also have to know there are reasons why those people in congress and the senate don't do what is in our interests.
It's called Money.
Kickbacks.
Call it what you will.
Pharmaceutical Companies Don't want our miracle drug (I use the term drug loosely, Cannabis is botanically an Herb) hitting the market legally.
Why is that? It would cut into their profit margin.

Liquor Companies do the same, as well as Tobacco Companies.

Also look at how much the courts make on it, in their minds "Pot Smokers" are an easy target.
It all boils down to Money in this country.
Why else would a millionaire take a job that only pays $300,000 a year?
Kickbacks. Little known Secret, the Bush Family didn’t make their fortunes in the Oil business, it was the Pharmaceutical companies that made their fortunes. Investing in those companies. Do you think that that family is going to cut into their bottom line? Hell no they won’t.

Making blanket statements about us Americans is the wrong approach.
Many in this country are too stupid to be free, simple fact.

The only thing that is going to make any great changes in this country would be a full Revolution, but many here wouldn’t know the first thing about starting one.

So in some respects you are right, but in other respects you happen to be dead wrong.
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dankdude wrote:
So in some respects you are right, but in other respects you happen to be dead wrong.


I'm glad we can agree on that, of course I am not always right, it's my opinion from what I have experienced and of course this is limited and I don't "own the truth", and you are right, sometimes I'm dead wrong too. Smile

Btw, it's not just an American problem, it's a global one. Cooperative (fascist) multinationals are buying politics on a world scale, also here in Holland. In my opinion that's where the real roots of our problems are.

Check out The 14 Characteristics of Fascism <-- click
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferre,

Thank you for your reply. I have a better understanding and appreciation of what you are saying now.

You make some very good points. Our politicians do seem to think we are too stupid to think for ourselves.

Peace to you and thank you for your patience in explaining your thoughts to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferre... Sure our country has problems. That gives you NO right to belittle us as a people or our methods of bringing about change in our country.

Your country is what.. aprox 16 million people?

The USA is around what... 290 million?

Its a lot harder to get 290 million(or a majority even) thinking the same thing at the same time. Especially when our whole way of thinking is based on allowing people to believe different things. We have to educate, convince and otherwise sway opinion here. We cant just riot in the streets and strong-arm our way to success.... We’ve tried that and it doesn’t work all the time.

Part of the problem is that we do respect the opinions of others. And so we have to approach change in way that garners support for our cause, not the opposite. True we have to fight misinformation from the government sometimes, and that makes it harder.

The Netherlands is what... 16,033 square miles in size?

The USA is what.....3,675,031 square miles in size?

Geographically even, its just not as easy to get everyone thinking the same way at the same time. Its a slow process and cant be done the way it can be a a significantly smaller country. Because to effect change you need to have a majority of the people seeing things the same way..... And since in this country we take the time to consider and discuss the opinions of others.... well it isn’t a fast thing.

Does that mean we sit on our arses doing nothing? Hell no!

The very freedoms that make us strong, sometimes slows down our forward momentum because we have to fairly hear out the opinions of our detractors.. But that’s not a weakness. Don’t presume to judge the American people as weak or spineless or gun wielding madmen just because we do things different than you do. We have problems, as all country’s do, but we aren’t sitting on our arses. Not all of us.

You said something like "they cant throw everyone in prison"
Well that’s an easy thing to say in your country. Sadly, prison and the legal system is big business in the country. Thats a failing I confess.... Point is they CAN put everyone currently fighting the fight in prison.
CAN and Do.

Because you see, as I said before, It takes a large majority to be able to bring about change. And our numbers aren’t large enough yet to bring about that change or to protect the individuals that are working hard to educate and bring about that change.

So until we get the momentum and public support we need, its a dangerous and often sad ending for many activists right now.

So keeping in mind that:
We have got people working hard on making change, by changing opinions.

We have a MUCH larger population to convince to our way of thinking, and a MUCH larger landmass to cover, with varying values and beliefs across the board.

That the government is fully capable and willing to jail you if you are to big a target for values that differ from the ones they are supporting.


I’m sure you can see how its maybe quite different here for an individual that it is where you are. You say : I couldn’t imagine... this... and that... here in Amsterdam..." well that may be true. But what is and isn’t in Amsterdam, isn’t the same here necessarily.

All that said, I’m still totally surprised(shocked even) at much of what you have said about Americans. You cant understand many things about why this and that? Lets accept that and agree that yes, you truly don’t understand.

I’m saddened by what’s transpired here. And I guess I feel that maybe as a representative of the THC-Ministry I expected a little more fair-mindedness in your posts and feelings about us belligerent Americans...Since many of us are in the struggle right beside you.
But in fairness to you, that’s my failing not yours. I shouldn’t have presumed to expect anything from you, based solely on the person I believed you to be. So for that presumption, I apologize.

You don’t know, my Brother. But, you don’t know that you don’t know. And so I forgive you.

Peace Sad
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Dont blame me... I voted for Kerry!! And so did my home state.
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THC-Ministry "we use Cannabis religiously and you can to" http://www.thc-ministry.org/
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CDXX Peace Time IV:XX ** Rev.Chazman-Cannabis Sacrament Minister
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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.


Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 2550
Location: Amsterdam

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you really read what I have written Chaz? Maybe you should go back and read it again, you surely misunderstand a lot of it, with all respect.
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