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Brother Adam
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:35 am    Post subject: Poll shows direct link between church and state Reply with quote

A poll done in 10 different countries proves just how far America is from a true separation of church and state like it's constitution calls for.

Here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8113152/
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Mystic Power
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Religious zeal sets U.S. apart from allies, poll finds


Religious zealots will find this to be a fine thing...
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Brother Adam
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what is so sickening about it. I just recently argued with someone over the fact that our constitution, and this country was NOT founded on the BIBLE and GOD! Regardless if our forefathers believed in a specific diety, our constitution calls for a complete separation of church and state and religious freedom for EVERYONE.....not just christians because SOME of our founders were of that faith. The freedom of religion was not specifically designed to give christians freedom. It was supposed to be for all of us.

God loving people see thier religious zeal as something great...even with mixed with a supposedly un-biased governing body. They see nothing wrong with electing a president because he claims GOD will help him lead.

Another thing I have a problem with is "in GOD we trust" being on all of our money. I don't trust in ANY diety, and I think it's another example of the coalition between church and state. They are in-seperable and most americans view that as a GOOD thing, pff! Gov't prints money, money has references to GOD on it. Yup, clear line of separation.
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Mystic Power
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Thank God! Now we have a Christian government!"
~ Rep. Tom DeLay ~

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Rev. Rodger L. Poole
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814



"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

- Thomas Jefferson
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Rev. Steve
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is what Tom Delay calls a Christian govt., We are in more trouble that I thought. A Christian govt. is almost a contradiction in terms. We need seperation of church and state because humans are too coruptable to represent G-d. BTW. On the front of our coins it says In G-d We trust, but on the back of the dollar is lucifer's eye decending to the apex of a pyramid, I'm confused.
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Brother Adam
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call Rev. Steve. I hadn't even reached the point of discussing that. Not only is it the eye of lucifer, but the words around it ANNUIT COEPTUS NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM literally mean THE BIRTH OF A NEW WORLD ORDER, and that pyramid and "all seeing eye" are symbols of the illuminati. Just to the right of that above the word ONE is "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the one dollar bill, which wasn't added until 1956. Not exactly what I'd called put in place by the founding fathers...The eagle holds a banner stating E PLURIBUS UNUM, or OUT OF MANY, ONE. Isn't that kinda what the idea was with the newly defunked EU Constitution?
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Shamash
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rev. Adam wrote:
... our constitution calls for a complete separation of church and state and religious freedom for EVERYONE.....


Uh oh. I am going to be controversial here, but could you show me the
section of the Constitiution where it calls for the complete "separation of
church and state"?

Quote:

God loving people see thier religious zeal as something great...even with mixed with a supposedly un-biased governing body. They see nothing wrong with electing a president because he claims GOD will help him lead.

So am I to assume then that it's OK for people who dismiss God with
zeal - and who consider that to be a great thing- to elect a president
who says he doesn't need God to help him?

In other words, if you believe God helps you lead, then you are not as
qualified for president as one who ignores God. Is that what you are
saying?
Quote:

Another thing I have a problem with is "in GOD we trust" being on all of our money.


Certainly I can concede that the statement on our coins is not true today.
We have fallen away from the original American Covenant of our
Founding Fathers for the last 150 years. Most of us are so far away
from it that we don't even know it existed.

The Covenant I speak of is the Mayflower Compact - it is America's
first great constitutional document. The self-governing Christians known
as Pilgrims wrote the Covenant with God while still on board the
Mayflower. It starts, "In the name of God, Amen." and goes on to state
that those Pilgrims, "having undertaken for the glory of God and
advancement of the Christian faith
and honor of King and country
to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia..."

Doesn't sound to me like they are too concerned about keeping
religion - specifically Christianity - out of government.

Maybe the problem is too much revisionist and politically correct history
is being taught in the government schools today?
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"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead
to political prosperity, Religion and morality
are indespensable supports.
In vain would that man claim the tribute of
Patriotism who should labor to subvert these
great Pilliars of human happiness."

George Washington (Farewell Address,
19 September 1796)
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HighRising
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamash, do you believe a religious govt. is a blessing?

I have no issue with it as long as their religious beliefs don't end up being pushed upon others as a result of their position... as we see happening these days.
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Mystic Power
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamash wrote:
We have fallen away from the original American Covenant of our
Founding Fathers for the last 150 years
. Most of us are so far away
from it that we don't even know it existed.

The Covenant I speak of is the Mayflower Compact...


Your math is as faulty as your Theocratic zeal. The Mayflower Compact was written in 1620...that's 385 years ago, not 150.

It was written by puritans who were such a pain in the ass, they were kicked out of Europe.

It's an interesting historical document...dating back to the early European Colonies in North America.

It has NOTHING to do with the founding of a independent nation in North America.

When politicians invoke "god"...they are playing to the religious right. Nothing more.

...and the religious right are not the sharpest pencils in the box.

Do not be fooled by cheap imitations. Laughing

Follow Your Bliss,
Ben
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~Hopi Elder ~

"In Lak'ech"
~ Ancient Mayan: "I am another YOU." ~
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Torkel
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MP wrote:
Quote:
When politicians invoke "god"...they are playing to the religious right. Nothing more.

...and the religious right are not the sharpest pencils in the box.

rofl
Damn straight.

Here is what's going on:
Quote:
'Power is a fleeting thing. One day your souls will be required of you.'


Annie Dillard reminds us, "There is only us; there never has been any other."

We gotta knock the stool out from under these hypocrites.

thrust

Peace,
Torkel
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Miller vs U.S. (230 F 2nd 486,489): "The claim and exercise of a Constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime."

Miranda vs Arizona (384 U.S. 436, 125): "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule-making or legislation which would abrogate them."

HAGANS vs LAVINE (415 US 533 N-3,note 5): "Once JURISDICTION is challenged it must be proven by the Plaintiff."
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Brother Adam
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamash wrote:
Rev. Adam wrote:
... our constitution calls for a complete separation of church and state and religious freedom for EVERYONE.....


Uh oh. I am going to be controversial here, but could you show me the
section of the Constitiution where it calls for the complete "separation of
church and state"?

Quote:

God loving people see thier religious zeal as something great...even with mixed with a supposedly un-biased governing body. They see nothing wrong with electing a president because he claims GOD will help him lead.

So am I to assume then that it's OK for people who dismiss God with
zeal - and who consider that to be a great thing- to elect a president
who says he doesn't need God to help him?

In other words, if you believe God helps you lead, then you are not as
qualified for president as one who ignores God. Is that what you are
saying?
Quote:

Another thing I have a problem with is "in GOD we trust" being on all of our money.


Certainly I can concede that the statement on our coins is not true today.
We have fallen away from the original American Covenant of our
Founding Fathers for the last 150 years. Most of us are so far away
from it that we don't even know it existed.

The Covenant I speak of is the Mayflower Compact - it is America's
first great constitutional document. The self-governing Christians known
as Pilgrims wrote the Covenant with God while still on board the
Mayflower. It starts, "In the name of God, Amen." and goes on to state
that those Pilgrims, "having undertaken for the glory of God and
advancement of the Christian faith
and honor of King and country
to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia..."

Doesn't sound to me like they are too concerned about keeping
religion - specifically Christianity - out of government.

Maybe the problem is too much revisionist and politically correct history
is being taught in the government schools today?


1.) You're right, it doesn't state specifically that there be a separation of church and state. However, it has been made quite clear since it's ratification that it most definitely is meant to support that very purpose of defining a clear separation of church and state.
Quote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. -Thomas Jefferson
That's where the phrase "separation of church and state" actually comes from.

2.) Yes. It's great for people who dismiss deism with zeal to be allowed to hold office. I find it is much better to have a leader who makes decisions based on what is best for all the people he represents instead of leading with a religious based agenda. Leading people who don't share his beliefs in the name of HIS own god.

Is it so hard to understand that our leaders should act solely on the simple premise of what's good for the people? Or do you believe right and wrong can't be defined or understood without deism?

3.) "and honor of King and country
to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia" These "pilgrims" were still under the rule of their King, which, might I add, they believed was divinely appointed to rule over them, hah! They had nothing to do with the constitution formed a couple hundred years LATER...........pff!
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“Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.”

-James Madison

Police officers acquitted for beating a 64 yr old man recently in New Orleans. In the words of their defense attorney "all he had to do was comply"....and they wouldn't have fractured his face.
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HighRising
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mystic Power wrote:
Shamash wrote:
We have fallen away from the original American Covenant of our
Founding Fathers for the last 150 years
. Most of us are so far away
from it that we don't even know it existed.

The Covenant I speak of is the Mayflower Compact...


Your math is as faulty as your Theocratic zeal. The Mayflower Compact was written in 1620...that's 385 years ago, not 150.

It was written by puritans who were such a pain in the ass, they were kicked out of Europe.

It's an interesting historical document...dating back to the early European Colonies in North America.

It has NOTHING to do with the founding of a independent nation in North America.

When politicians invoke "god"...they are playing to the religious right. Nothing more.

...and the religious right are not the sharpest pencils in the box.

Do not be fooled by cheap imitations. Laughing

Follow Your Bliss,
Ben


Although you are right, I think Shamash was implying that we have forgotten the Mayflower Compact in the last 150 years, not that it was written in 1855.
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Brother Adam
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a good thing it was forgotten or we wouldn't have what little religious freedom and separation we have now. Can't wait for ID to hit the schools...pff!
_________________
-Brother Adam (we are all one family)

“Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.”

-James Madison

Police officers acquitted for beating a 64 yr old man recently in New Orleans. In the words of their defense attorney "all he had to do was comply"....and they wouldn't have fractured his face.
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Shamash
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HighRising wrote:
Shamash, do you believe a religious govt. is a blessing?

I have no issue with it as long as their religious beliefs don't end up being pushed upon others as a result of their position... as we see happening these days.


I like your tone of voice...

A religious government can be evil or good, depending on the precepts of
that religion and those who follow it. You know that evil people can use
good things for self-serving purposes.

Someone's values are always going to be the rule. Those values can be
ones of justice and equality or they can be those of oppression and
death. The Caesers, Pharoahs, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Hitler,
Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Saddam Hussein - just to name the most well known-
have all forced their will upon others and if any religion was involved it
was just part of the chess game of power.

To answer your question, I think you should consider what the founders
of this country thought. John Quincy Adams said, "The highest glory of
the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond
the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."


Pretty strong and straight forward stuff. Maybe we don't like it, but
that's the way it was.
_________________
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead
to political prosperity, Religion and morality
are indespensable supports.
In vain would that man claim the tribute of
Patriotism who should labor to subvert these
great Pilliars of human happiness."

George Washington (Farewell Address,
19 September 1796)
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