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Mystic Power
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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...but the historicity of Jesus is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian...


I have about as much faith in the existence of the one as I do the other. rofl

...but, then, I have about as much need to believe in god as a fish needs to believe in water. Wink

"God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."
~ Joseph Campbell ~


Campbell makes a lot of sense, to me. Here's another'n:

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience."
~ Joseph Campbell ~


I have the experience of The Great Mystery, just as that fish has the experience of water. Faith optional, not required. Experience transcends the need to believe.

Follow Your Bliss,
Ben
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Rev. Joshua Snider
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One love Brothers and Sisters!

Brother Shamash I don't think we are all singing the same tune here, and I think thats the way it should be because we are all individuals. I for one am a Christian and I tend to lean towards the idea that Jesus was a historical figure. To me he is more important as an archetype though (and one that I need to internalize rather than worship outwardly). I believe Brother Quendzer is a sort of Christian as well although i am not qualified to speak for him or anyone else here.

A Jewish playwright who wrote exclusively in German (his interviews and wrightings have all been translated to English, I believe) named Peter Weiss. Was discussing his play "Marat Sade" once (the shorter title for "The Assassination and Persecution of Jean Paul Marat as Orchestrated by the inmates of Charenton under the Direction of the Marque de Sade") and he was speaking of antagonistic or conflicting view points. He talked about how seemingly antogonistic view points could be quite helpfull to see different sides of the the same matter, but if they were fataly antagonistic and one killed the other, you would effectively lose a lense or an eyeball so to speak. I think its a very good thing that we are all different. I think we need that to make any real progress.

One love,
Joshua
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Last edited by Rev. Joshua Snider on Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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reverendquenzer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Snider you would be slightly off in labeling me a christian. I was raised by that faith and therefore understand it extensively but that understanding has drawn me away from the faith in such stories. I personally do not know if jesus is real or not. If he was he was not better a being than I nor anyone else in this realm he may have been more developed in his abilities but that makes him more disciplined not better. I see no point in relying my entire exhistance on one man. rather the part of this one man (me) that is part of all of you. My personal path follows a gnostic perspective which to my understanding was a rather pagan belief long before christianity exhisted. Gnostics search for knowledge knowing that the only true knowledge is gained from within. Awaking a devine spark of knowledge truth that is unadulterated by man but simply imbeded in my spirit. That is the basis of my journey here. To those who walk another path I say I hope our paths meet in the better place.
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malloryjade
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rev.ErikM, your too funny. Rev. Joshua you are respectful when you post your views and that I appreciate. You haven't tried to get anyone here to believe what you believe. Thank you. I don't mean to offend you. My best friend is Christian. I tell her all about the posts here.
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prntrkmt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamash wrote:
Wow, I'm in the wrong choir. Everyone here is singing the same tune.

I've read the 'Origins of the New Testament' and I have about 100 points of contention. I mean, you can dis-believe Jesus existed if you want to, but the historicity of Jesus is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar.


The standard used by "unbiased historians" is CONTEMPORARY historical (written) and archaeological (physical) evidence.

There is a huge amount of contemporary historical and archaeological evidence to support the existence of Julius Caesar.

There is ZERO contemporary historical or archaeological evidence to support the existence of Jesus.

I don't know what it says now, but for more than 100 years the Encyclopedia Britannica (formerly the most respected encyclopedia in the world) always had a short article explaining that there was no historical or archaeological evidence for an article and that it wasn't their place to engage in religious discusssions. And the Encyclopedia Britannica staff always had a whole bunch of Christians on their staff, so if there was any bias, it was a pro-Christian bias.
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prntrkmt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamash wrote:
Likewise, we can see how the effects of the teachings of Jesus have effected men for 2000 years.


There are many other persons of mythological origin whose teachings have affected men and women for far more than just 2,000 years.
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prntrkmt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamash wrote:
but the historicity of Jesus is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar.


By the way, an unbiased historian would NOT consider anything from history to be AXIOMATIC. That is the very antithesis of history.

Axioms are things considered to be facts without any proof of any kind.

Historians do NOT consider Julius Caesar to have existed from an axiomatic belief system. They consider him to have existed from the massive amounts of actual historical (written) and archaeological (physical) evidence fromt he EXACT same time period (contemporary evidence) that he existed.

The difference here is that the existence of Julius Caesar is PROVEN from verifiable contemporary FACTS, while there is ZERO comntemporary historical or archaeological proof of the existence of Jesus.
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Grannymouse
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If its what you DO that is important, then what is to be said for the Buddhist practice of ...'Well don't just do something! Sit there!' ?

I've gotten to the point where i hardly try to DO ANYTHING, in fact i try to do as little as possible. You would not believe the stuff that presents itself for me to pay attention to...and do.
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Mystic Power
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If its what you DO that is important, then what is to be said for the Buddhist practice of ...'Well don't just do something! Sit there!' ?


Your point is well taken, and I agree. Within the context of "it's not the mythos, but what you DO with it," ...just 'sitting there' is what you're DOing with it at that point in time.

Not DOing is a wonderful thing to DO. Smile

Juggling the occasional apparent paradox is part of the whole package, when dealing with the ineffable.

Bliss,
Ben
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Rev. Joshua Snider
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One love!

Sorry I dropped off the conversation for a day or two there. I've been busting my but trying to put the finishing touches on a motion and brief and yesterday I think I was able to finish the brief (finaly), but it took my whole day right up until I had to leave for work at the restuarant.

Sorry for my assumption Brother Danny, no offense intended. I too believe that it is inner understanding that is best sought rather than trying to understand outward models created by society. I don't base my existance on any one person other than myself either. Perhaps we will meet in paradise. I tend to believe that paradise is right here on earth and that believing paradise is somewhere we go after we die tends to encourage destructive behavior towards our wonderfull planet.

Sister Malory, thank you for your kind words. I know I've walked a very intersting path to get to be who I am today and I'm sure you all have too.
I feel that if I tried to get people to believe exactly the way I do, I would essentialy be trying to convince them that they had walked my path and not theirs. I would likely just piss everybody off doing that, or even worse if I was able to convince anybody of that, I would be perpetuating and reinforcing a delusion. I don't see either scenario as productive.

Anyway, One love and here is to saving our planet with the help of the only plant versatile enough to do the job (Cannabis)!

Joshua
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Last edited by Rev. Joshua Snider on Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mystic Power
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've been busting my but trying to put the finishing touches on a motion and brief and yesterday I think I was able to finish the brief


All the best to you, in your efforts!

Follow Your Bliss,
Ben
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Brother Ben! Hopefully it will be helpfull for everyone in one way or another.

One love,
Joshua
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Last edited by Rev. Joshua Snider on Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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reverendquenzer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rev Snider no offense taken. and I like what you say about paradise on earth although I myself believe there is a better place.
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reverendquenzer wrote:
Rev Snider no offense taken. and I like what you say about paradise on earth although I myself believe there is a better place.


A better place? And where would that be?

I do agree that this earth isn't exactly a paradise right now with all the terror and warmongering from religious folks that dominate our thoughts and lives, brought into it by means of the overwhelming news on that subject which doesn't seem to stop.

However, I'd really like to know where this better place would be situated, and if we can just move there to get rid of those idiots who make this earth nearly unlivable for those who are totally fed up with their war and fear mongering.

If there is such a place I'd be happy to sell everything I have to start a new life somewhere else. Seriously. I'm really, really, fed up with having to live in a world where religious nutters dominate every aspect of life and intrude my peace of mind on a daily basis.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, Ferre!

i grew up near a Hutterite colony. Sometimes i wonder if creating/joining a Haoma colony would be some sort of answer.

I've wondered if making it a 'nature preserve' would be a solution... (Preserving Haoma And Haoma's people...and perhaps some birds)
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