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Mystic Power
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Origins of the New Testament... Reply with quote

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Origins of the New Testament

The question is often asked, if Jesus was not an actual historical person where did the Christian religion come from, how did it originate? This is a fair question but not a small or uncomplicated one. The answer, therefore, is neither small nor simple. This article will necessarily include some of from where Christianity derived its ideas from but the main focus will be on the how, why and by whom it came about.

The basic methodology of truth seekers is to look beyond the typical and highly questionable evidence and answers offered in defense of belief. Believers usually talk in terms of absolutes regarding their system and the evidence that supports it. In truth, however, absolute proof is not possible on either side of the issue. What we can do though is to point out the fact that there is strong evidence and explanations that demonstrate credible alternatives to blind belief.

Inquiring about origins require us to look backward from the event we are seeking answers to. The biggest mistake people make when they want to understand an historical event is to limit their search to the history of and after the event. To understand any historical event one must look at the history prior to and leading up to the event in question. That historical picture must include substantial information about the cultures and belief systems that preceded and shared that age. What we must resist is narrowing and limiting our view to only what is within the NT itself or the history after those supposed events.

When taken altogether this evidence demonstrates that all the questions have not been answered, all the proof is not in, and that their 'last and final word' is far from the last and final word on the subject. The Pagan origins of Christianity become clearer the more is understood of the ideas and practices of those ancient belief systems. When the beginnings of their system are put back into the much larger, complete and complex context of its historical and cultural milieu a much different picture emerges as to the origins of Christianity.

To begin with there is no indisputable evidence that there ever was a person named Jesus Christ. No verifiable eye-witness accounts exist. Both the Roman Empire and the Jewish people left extensive records none however mention a Jesus Christ. Josephus Flavius, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius and Tacitus are men that the Church says provided proof. None of them ever met Jesus in person and their accounts are therefore in the category of 'hearsay.' There is also no verifiable historical record of any of the other characters that make up the Jesus story i.e. Mary, Joseph or the twelve apostles. Hayyim ben Yehoshua is very correct when he points out that historically speaking, "the very existence of Jesus has not been proven."

All the propositions that include, but are not limited to, a male immortal sky god that comes to earth and magically impregnates a mortal female who gives virgin birth, at the time of the winter solstice, to a male child who is god the father, re-born as his own son, are of pagan origin.
MORE>> http://clarusbooks.com/Origins.htm


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great source Bro. Thanks! Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent article. Finally someone puts in print what I've been screaming for a long time. Jesus didn't exist.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

man that would have saved your fingers from carple tunnel a long time ago adam
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a Neo-Zoroastrian stance, i have to say....YES!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

The more we know, the more we know.

I think it's pretty encouraging to know that our myths all stem from the same sources of, basically, astrology and Sun/Nature/Season awareness.

It points toward a unity of Consciousness, rather than artificial division.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, if it where not that the Abrahamic teachings advocate exactly the opposite of a unity of consciousness, those teachings leave no room for aceptance of historical facts when it conflicts those teachings, let alone facing reality.

All this is punishable with hell. I am not naive enough to believe that the mainstream christians/muslims/jews will overcome their fear of this hell, caused by centuries of mental terrorism inflicted upon them since their birth.

I found another article via that site which explains how monotheism is totalitarianism

Scary concept, if you ask me. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my favorite movie lines, ever, is from THE TRUMAN SHOW, with Jim Carrey -- about a guy whose whole life is a fake, and is being televised, world-wide, 24/7...only he's not aware of it. He thinks it's all real.

Ed Harris plays the show's creator and producer. He calls himself a televisionary. In an interview, he's asked why Truman doesn't realize that something isn't quite right. He answers, "Because we do not question the 'reality' with which we are presented."

From my point of view, the Abrahamic Model is a part of our history that we need, individually and en masse, to evolve away from. It no longer serves us well, either spiritually nor socially.

Things never happen fast enough to suit me. It will take, my guess, another 150 years for current western religious thought to morph into something closer to reality...

But...I can't stand on a box and shout, "Evolve, Goddamnit!! Bang the rocks together, guys!!"

It's not my job to convert anyone away from their religious path -- but it IS my (self-appointed) "job" to be willing to assist anyone who feels trapped by fundamentalist thought to disentanagle from it. My caveat: They have to ASK. It has to be what they want to do.

It can be difficult and scary for folks...especially if they believe in concepts like sin* and Hell.

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Ben
*The only "sin" is being mean. The only "Hell" is self-created. It's a state-of-being, not a place. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: edited because of my poor use of English time mechanisms Reply with quote

One love Brother's and Sisters!

I tried to find an online text version of Dr. Morton Smith's "Jesus The Magician:...) but to no avail. I did find this short review http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cbogs/criticalreview_bogs.pdf .

I first learned of this wonderfull book and obtained my own personal copy while under the tutlage of individuals that had left Anton Lavey's United Church of Satan because it just wasn't hardcore enough for them, these individuals went on to found "The Temple of Set" and the "Rune Gild" . l studied under, and learned from these individuals while I was between the age of 16 and 23. Their view of Jesus was that he was something of a "Left Hand Path" Magician and Sorcerer.

One of the sources that Dr. Smith draws upon, which I always wanted to get a copy of, is "Papyri graecae magicae", 2 ed., edd. K. Preisendanz and A Heinrichs, Stuttgart, 1973-1974, 2 vols. This work contains about 10 ancient magical papyri from around that time period. One of these is "The Leiden (or Leyden) papyrus also known as the 9th Book of Moses.

Unfortunateley it was about 200 dollars last I checked and that was back when our American dollar was still strong.

An interesting side note about the word "Hell" is that about half a dozen different words, all with different meanings are all translated into most modern languages as one mythical concept. Most of the words simply mean death or grave and the fate of every living thing that dies not just the "unrighteous". One of the words, "Tartaros", only occurs once, and it occurs in the New Testament as the place where "God" places the rebel angels temporarily. The Jehova's Wittnesses, for example, do not even believe that it is a place humans can go. In Greek Mythology "Tartaros" is where Zeuss puts the Titans after they revolt.

Just my 2 cents.

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Joshua
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Last edited by Rev. Joshua Snider on Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I'm in the wrong choir. Everyone here is singing the same tune.

I've read the 'Origins of the New Testament' and I have about 100 points of contention. I mean, you can dis-believe Jesus existed if you want to, but the historicity of Jesus is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar.

Both the Roman Empire and the Jewish people left extensive records none however mention a Jesus Christ...There is also no verifiable historical record of any of the other characters that make up the Jesus story i.e. Mary, Joseph This just isn't so. Even the Jews who hated Jesus have records of him.

The writer says what we have is hearsay because it's not first person. Give me a break. Most everything we read on here could be classified as hearsay and can't be relied upon if we use that standard. You may as well pack it up and go home.

The writer also quotes others to make his point. Has he seen them personally? One person refers to the Paleolithic age. Was that person there to witness what they claim to be true?

I don't even know any of you really exist. But, I see the effects of the keys you push on a keyboard somewhere. Of course, all this discussion could be one guy with a green beard pecking away to drive everyone else crazy and none of this is real.

Likewise, we can see how the effects of the teachings of Jesus have effected men for 2000 years. And I'm not talking about nor excusing the abuses of men using religion for their own power plays and the self-fulfillment of their own lusts. Naturally, I'm sure that everyone on this forum has no personal agenda of their own, right?

Yea, right.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your just now figuring out that your in the wrong choir? Wow absolutely amazing!!!!! no wonder you believe in Jesus. Your pretty slow to catch on. Another one for the shortbus. Maybe you can borrow a helmet from the village idiot. My personal agenda is for me to sit here and say fuck god and jesus.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

malloryjade wrote:
My personal agenda is for me to sit here and say fuck god and jesus.


They'd have to turn into some smokin' hot babes before I could make that my agenda.

Plus, I'd need verification that my wife wouldn't disembowel me for cheating on her :p
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And...on a more serious note.

It doesn't matter if jesus existed, or if god does exist. You're still responsible for your own actions, you're responsible for hating people and making yourself miserable when you could just love them and feel good, and you're responsible for the effect you have on everything around you.

I look at it this way. You know how athletes are always saying "Yeah, our team played great today, but I'd like to thank Jesus for the win! God was with us!", right? How come when they lose, they never say, "Well, our team did the best they could, but Jesus wanted us to lose!" It's because they don't want to feel responsible for the loss. If they thank god when they win but don't mention god when they lose, they're subtly blaming god for losing the game. That way, by thanking for wins, they don't have to take responsibility for the fact they lost. It's all god's fault!

This is one of my main beefs with christians in general. Christians place all the responsibility for everything on god. "Oh no, I'm a sinner because god made me with some shitty wicked human heart!!! But since it's not my fault, I can cry and beg forgiveness for being me and god won't roast my ass like a rabbit on a spit in eternal hellfire!" Or, better yet, "I was being evil because the devil mis-lead me, and god created the devil just like he is just so the devil would mis-lead me!" Christianity always comes back to "it's all in god's hands" rather than "The entire world is a projection of myself, all existence is within me, I am all existence, so it's up to me to take good care of it."

Hey, what happened to the Veil of the Holiest of Holies when Jesus died in the Bible? It ripped. Why did it rip? What's the significance of that, in story or in actuality? Simple. It means no other being is fit to work as a go-between for any other being - no priests, no prophets, no spiritual beings - you have to approach the One Which Is All (YOURSELF) on your own, no one else can do it for you. That's often-overlooked Christian doctrine, but definately not dogma because it would leave a lot of fat-and-happy evangelists actually having to work for a living.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble."
~ Joseph Campbell ~


Wise words. We talk to ourselves in stories.

It doesn't matter to me what a person's particular mythos is -- it's what they DO with it that matters.

Follow Your Bliss,
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mystic Power wrote:
It doesn't matter to me what a person's particular mythos is -- it's what they DO with it that matters.

Follow Your Bliss,
Ben


Yep, soo true, and the very reason why I have build up more and more disgust for anything abrahamic during the many years of studying history, and experiencing the deeds by the followers of those teachings in our daily lives.

To quote Richard Dawkins:

Quote:
My last vestige of "hands off religion" respect disappeared in the smoke and choking dust of September 11th 2001, followed by the "National Day of Prayer," when prelates and pastors did their tremulous Martin Luther King impersonations and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place.

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