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Is the Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God primitive?
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Fyrefly1
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mystic Power wrote:
Quote:
We may be sharing this consensual reality, but that does not mean that we all share the same perception of that reality.


I think this is the absolute nature of things.

Core beliefs are energy which attract and create events, people, and experiences which, then, reinforce those very beliefs.

It pays to be aware of the contents of our conscious thoughts. They are energy.

Bliss,
Ben


Love that...

Smile
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aeroplane
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Is the Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God primitive? Reply with quote

I posed this question back in ancient times, but now I would like to ask it of the new generation of brainiacs and theologins. Please read the following carefully and post your response.

Thanks in advance.

aeroplane wrote:
Is the Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God primitive? All three practice allegance to basically the same God and all three believe that each must be the favorited of this God. An external god that looks like us and sits on a throne playing mankind like a grand chess match that will bring the world as we know it to an abrupt end for the fulfillment of His ego.

God is not an external being. God is the love within us that strives to express itself and experience itself in each of us. It is the desire for acceptance among others as we try to remind ourselves of who we truly are.

"Do you not know that you are gods?"

Those words were spoken 2,000 years ago by one of the radicals that allowed Love to express itself through him to help remind us. We are gods. We are the Buddha. We are the alplha and omega playing your character in this theatrical production called your life.

This life really is just a game after all. But it is not a chess match played by warring gods. It is a game meant to teach us about love on so many different levels. We forget that our purpose is to love and be loved and to record those experiences. We as the Buddha wrote the script and rules a long time ago. We chose our various roles to play to remind us about love through pain and ecstasy.

Knowing this, we can evolve as we no longer need to kill and harm in the name of our gods. We can see each other as equals. Each of us a unique expression of Love which we are all apart of and no one has more of a right to that Love more than us. All of us. God loves all of us equally because God is us.

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Rev. Jack
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Namaste Aeroplane

I always enjoy you thoughtful questions.
Quote:
Is the Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God primitive?

YES, In that they fail to realize the true message of the one we call Jesus.
That message being "All you need is Love," (insert Beatles tune here) party and that being created in the image of GOD we are co-creators with GOD in creating the world we live in.
One of the most evolved veiws of the TRUTH can be found in "the Secret: the Law of Attraction" [url]www.thesecret.tv [/url]. The only thing it lacks is the "Person to Person" quality of relationship that our Creator and Divine Parent desires so very much.
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RevErikM
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well...my take on Jesus is that his entire message was based on loving acceptance of everything around you, and the necessity of each of us to seek the Divine on our own, rather than through a mediator. This is why the only way I can "proselytize" is by convincing others to question everything everyone else tells them, including myself, on matters of spirituality so they can see things for themself. Acceptance is spiritual love, and it's really tough not to accept things when you accept yourself and see that all things are you, and that you are all things, and there is no real separation on the most basic level.

Main-stream Christianity isn't really a following of Christ, either, in my opinion. I've read the Bible loads, and I've been to a lot of different Christian churches - what I always see is that Christian churches are based mainly upon writings attributed to Paul, and none of them totally abide by that; the individual churches really ride on the church leader's interpretation of Paul's writings when it comes to indoctrination, and they use things like Daniel, Isaiah, and Revelations to smack the (insert deep spooky voice) "fear of GOD" into the congregation. Most doctrinal-deciders don't really go in-depth with their own sacred text in Christianity either, they pick and choose what they want to read literal, and if something literal doesn't fit their bit, they say "oh, it's not meant to be literal, it's meant to be symbolic." But that's the major downfall to going to a church and having someone preach doctrines and truths to you - you have to rely on your interpretation of their presentation of their experience in the best of cases, and in the worst of cases (where it's sincere, I won't even go into frauds) you have to rely on your interpretation of their presentation of their interpretation of someone else's presentation of an experience that happened to their wife's-older-brother's-cousin-in-law's-sister-in-law's-father's-great-great-grandfather. It's like the old "telephone" game we used to play as kids to illustrate how people can't keep a story straight, where I describe what a dorito tastes like to the person beside me, and 20 people on down the line the story's turned into a description of turnips a la carte. If you're not getting it yourself, you're just not getting - spiritual experiences are impossible to pass on to others unless they have also experienced it.

I can't speak on the subject of Judaism or Islam, except to say that what's called Judaism today can't be the same thing from the book of Leviticus in the Talmud. I honestly don't think it's possible to practice the old religion of the Hebrews, because the practice of it actually relied on knowing which tribe you're from - and no "Jewish" person that I've ever met can claim any tribe. Jewish people today are not Hebrews - and the only reason they could be "distinct" as a "race" is because (from my understanding) you can only be considered Jewish if your mom was Jewish, so Jewish moms encourage Jewish boys to knock up Jewish girls. This type of selective in-breeding is what's necessary to maintain or create a race - but they're not the Hebrews written about in the Bible, and there's no proof whatsoever that today's Jewish populations are even related to the Hebrews of old, except through the way all human populations are related. (This should not be considered as a slight to Jewish people or Judaism converts, I'm just drawing a distinction between ancient literature and what we have today.)

I have little knowledge of or interest in Islam, I have perused the practice to find its source but I have not analyzed it. However, one thing that I like about Islam is it's not just based on interpretations of the Koran - a lot of it is based on the experiences gained through prayer to Allah. This is an excellent thing because it will tend to break people from a lot of rigorous symbolics - but something else we see in Islam is the distinction of sects and people trying to establish themselves as religious leaders by claiming they have a better understanding of the doctrines presented in the Koran. This type of leadership establishment only leads one to attempt to control others, and strike down those with opposing doctrines.

In my religious beliefs, there a few very important points that are basically safe-guards:

First off, no one can declare what is spiritually true for another, only for themself, and because of this, we have to seek out our own truth for ourself. We can't be wrong in this, but our understanding will grow and change as we need it to, at the speed we need it to, for the ultimate end that cannot be expressed.

Secondly, there is no ultimate sacred writing. What's important in a symbol or a writing isn't what it says, but what people do with it. A book is only sacred and divine when people use it to feed their sacred and divine side. From this perspective, "Moby Dick" holds as much and as little weight as "Exodus."

No spiritual hierarchy can possible be established for the dissertation of spiritual truths and doctrines. We're all equal in this regard, and no one person can be respected as having more or disrespected as having less of the Almighty within them. A church as an organization will probably have need of a structure, but the structure should be recognized as a purely material thing, and that's only IF you actually have need of the organization. A church in my religious beliefs is simply a community that gathers together to share in rituals with the Sacred Teachers, and depending on the rituals, there are certain roles to be played, but there is no "preaching," only discussion. Standing one person up or taking turns standing up and slamming a book against a pulpit for an hour doesn't promote spiritual understanding, because there is no discussion and there is no promotion of self-discovery. (Ha, I just realized that I basically preach through text...sorry dudes, but writing like this is one of the best methods of organization and learning for me.)

And for me, those are important points to keep a religion from descending into simple doctrines, symbolics, and baseless ceremony. I actually came to what I believe now by studying other religions and reverse-engineering them to discover their seed, because that's what I wanted - the seed, not the dead old oak tree. BUT - one of the best things about using the Sacred Teachers in religious rituals is it keeps the religion from decaying into pure symbolism - the plants are the continuance of change and the spiritual inertia needed to experience these things on your own (unless you're gifted enough to lose your mind and partially come back to reality.) A lot of the reason they've been removed and demonized from modern religions is because they actually open up a direct pathway to the Almighty for you, and that pathway destroys the power of religious leaders through their doctrines of guilt/fear/remorse/forgiveness.

Typical outline of a controller religion:

Convert is demonized to capitalize on guilts due to lack of acceptance of self;

Convert is threatened with eternal punishment for being evil by an outside force;

Convert is offered a chance to be saved from their due punishment by the wonderful mercy of the outside force that intends to punish them if they don't give their absolute devotion and soul to that outside force;

Convert is promised wealth and splendour after they die for maintaining undying devotion to the outside force AND they're promised their enemies will be viciously and brutally savaged;

Convert is told to go out and convert more people, and let others know if they don't convert, they will suffer a most heinous retribution from an omnipotent outside force who wants to love them, but can't love them if they don't give that outside force their life and soul so they can be "cleansed." On the extreme end, the convert is given a "Ass-Kickin' License" to beat others into submission or kill them so they can hurry up and receive their due punishment from the loving but terrible outside force.

Well, that's it on a physical level, at least. It's a grand scheme for controlling masses - and if you throw one of the sacred plants into that mix, it devastates it because cannabis, peyote, teonanacatl, or iboga are all going to whisper into the devotee's soul "Hey, stupid...that guy in the robe is a jackass. Look, I'll show you how things really work."

On a spiritual level, this type of system could be benign - or it could be a feeder system for a hungry ghost. Here's a story of mine that I hope will help you understand why I say that.

My landlord and landlady are an old couple. The husband isn't doing too well, and he was on the verge of death about six months ago. I noticed these two spirits waiting by him, and I asked them who they were - they claimed to be angels, and said they were dispatched to him because it was his time to go and they were going to guide him to their Lord.

I see different spirits on different levels. Some are blue, which indicates earth-bound, etheric incarnations. These can be transmuted into other forms or easily absorbed. Spirits bound in the Other appear with no physical form and cannot cross-over into the physical except through the awareness of those who perceive them - they are forms of imagination, I can't explain it any other way. Then there are the 4th Plane spirits.

The 4th Plane to me appears golden, and all the spirits from it are also golden. Sacred Teachers are in this class of spirits; they can't cross over into the physical, but they can open up a portal through the barrier that divides the physical from the spiritual. The self-proclaimed "angels" I saw were from this class.

I told the angels to leave - and they tried to tell me if they left, he'd be "lost" after he died. So I explained to them that I knew he would only die if they remained, and as a material-bound spirit, I have domain to order them to leave. (There are spiritual mechanics to that which I won't go in-depth on here, but you can ask if you're curious.) They promptly left, and the next day, my landlord's physical condition had greatly improved.

I told my landlady what had happened, and she said she was happy he hadn't died, and expressed a bit of distress when I told her I had demanded the angels leave - she had described seeing angels to me before, and she's a devout Christian. I think what bothered her was that I made them leave, or that I had the ability to do so, and I've expressed to her many times that I will not align myself with the term "christian."

Whoah...just realized I've been writing this for way longer than I meant and the kids are getting into stuff...Thanks for reading my ramble! Smile
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poko
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God is the Spirit. God does exist. In his hand are all things. But people take other spirits as gods, created spirits who are not the One. Wether it may be man, or it may be demons. That´s the difference between the followers of God, and the followers of religion. And all those who believed the first lie. That man is god, but they fell into the hands of the serpent, not for being free, but for being slaves.
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Nachtschattenreich
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeroplane, as to primitivity in monotheism, the banners on the walls in these beheading videos from Iraq spelled tawhid, which is Arab for monotheism. Still, from the God of Abraham we have a clearly different tradition when it comes to the issue of human sacrifice.

Asking why God has not created equals is a bit like asking why has God created humans (and the entire fossile record). On the other hand, the assumption of a multitude of rivaling Creators may also leave your game theory of life more muddled.

Erik, can you provide examples of how Islam was open for inspiration? The Islamic theology I know about is quite rigorous on that issue: Doctrine of the Finality of the Prophethood
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RevErikM
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The prayer requirement is the only way I know of in Islam (though I admit I am not well-studied on Islam or the Koran) for the practitioners to be open to inspiration. It is possible that they must recite certain verses or something similar when they pray, and only that, and if that's the case, then the prayer does NOT leave them open for inspiration; rather, that would lead to a firmer indoctrination of what was being expounded upon them by other men.
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Rev. Jack
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Namaste RevErikM and all

Well said,
Quote:
Well...my take on Jesus is that

Quote:
Main-stream Christianity isn't really a following of Christ
Christianity is a religion "about Jesus". Jesus wants us to practice the he practiced. i.e.
Quote:
my take on Jesus is that his entire message was based on loving acceptance of everything around you, and the necessity of each of us to seek the Divine on our own, rather than through a mediator.
Very Happy

Quote:
In my religious beliefs, there a few very important points that are basically safe-guards:

Brilliant!!!
Until we get to "Preaching".
Quote:
While I agree Standing one person up and slamming a book against a pulpit for an hour doesn't promote spiritual understanding
and
Quote:
Typical outline of a controller religion:
(Very accurate!!! Shocked Smile )
Preaching is a natural expression of the desire to share good news with your fellows, and a great way to begin and focus discussion. "Everyone" should be incouraged to preach but never be preachy. To stand up and bear witness to the Goodness as well as the strife can be a cathartic and impowering experience.

Quote:
Well, that's it on a physical level, at least. It's a grand scheme for controlling masses - and if you throw one of the sacred plants into that mix, it devastates it because cannabis, peyote, teonanacatl, or iboga are all going to whisper into the devotee's soul "Hey, stupid...that guy in the robe is a jackass. Look, I'll show you how things really work."

OH! AMEN!!!! roflol

Quote:
My landlord and landlady are an old couple.

Wow! Your experiences would make good reading. I only sense them as presence or something... Mad I cant put in to words. We are living in a place that resembles the movie the Matrix more than we want to realize. Eric you have a perception of the real world on a very deep personal level that many would call delusional but only because they refuse to experience it for themselves. The Power to affect our world is the greatest secret ever kept. If any one reading this would like help opening these frontiers may I recommend [url]www.thesecret.tv [/url]video as a great way to start. The combination of Cannabis and the Law of Atraction is amazing.


Namaste Nachtschattenreich

I dont think Monotheism (the belief in One Source and Center, First Cause) is the issue. But rather the "institutions" that teach Monotheism.
Thanks for the Islam link, I tend to forget just how closed minded and self-protecting they can be.

P.S. Thanks for the info on mintoil, Im trying to get up the courage to try it. scared
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RevErikM
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I just read that link on Islam you posted, Nacht. I agree completely with it; Mohammed was saying the exact same thing there that Jesus was saying, but in a different way.

Jesus' message was go to God on your own, no other man can take you to God.

Mohammed is saying that he's the last prophet sent by God, and everyone after him would be a "calith," so you have to go to God on your own, and you can't count on another prophet to declare the "Will of the Almighty" for you.

It's kind of funny, now that I think about it; anyone who tries to climb the ranks of the Islamic clergy is declaring himself a calith...lol
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Nachtschattenreich
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erik, wow. This is the first time I see a Muslim interpret the Finality of the Prophethood as a limitiation to the power of clerics.

As the Polish Pope once said, it´s complicated to get an appointment to talk to me, but if you chose to directly talk to God there´s no waiting line.

Unfortunately most of the Islamic discourse is not as progressed yet. Since the death of Mohammed of Arabia, Muslims are at war with each other over the legitimacy of various claims on the post of the caliph. There´s sectarian violence between the bloodline apologists (shia) and other (sunni) Muslims up to the current day.
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aeroplane
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Namaste Aeroplane
I always enjoy you thoughtful questions.

Namaste right back at you brother Jack and everyone else. I hope this question didn't ruffle too many feathers. It is meant only for enlightenment purposes and not to be question of whether or not one Abrahamic religion is better than the others. That would simply be creating God in the image of man. IMHO, a god that plays favorites is about as ridiculous as a god that sits on a throne or uses a toilet or is identified by a sex.

As brother Poko said,
Quote:
God does exist.

True. But do we exist?
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Rev. Jack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AEROPLANE!!!
Where you been?
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aeroplane
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rev. Jack wrote:
AEROPLANE!!!
Where you been?

It takes light 200,000 years to cross the galactic center of the Milky Way, I've done it in about 3 months. That's why you haven't seen much of me here lately. Laughing



PS, I think I saw brother Ben & Zero out there trying to see who can cross it first on Vespa motor scooters.
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Rev. Jack
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Namaste Aeroplane
Or should I call you Astralplane? Smile
Will you be posting your travel logue soon?
can't wait to read it! bounce
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rev. Jack wrote:
Namaste Aeroplane
Or should I call you Astralplane? Smile
Will you be posting your travel logue soon?
can't wait to read it! bounce


I'll be gettin' back to ya on that, brother Jack. I was travelling so much faster than the speed of light it's a little hard to read the writing in my captain's log. Laughing
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