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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Court overrules church's use of pot as sacrament Reply with quote

I was just reading this article and I DO have some remarks on that court decision.

Here's the article:

Quote:
Court overrules church's use of pot as sacrament

Says founders lack a 'sincere' religious belief

By Stephanie Innes
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 12.27.2006

A federal judge has ruled against the founders of a Southeastern Arizona
church that deifies marijuana and uses it as a sacrament, saying they don't
have a "sincere" religious belief.
In her refusal to dismiss charges against Dan and Mary Quaintance, U.S.
District Judge Judith C. Herrera in Albuquerque wrote that evidence
indicates the pair "adopted their 'religious' belief in cannabis as a
sacrament and deity in order to justify their lifestyle choice to use
marijuana."
Herrera's Dec. 22 order means the government's criminal case against the
Quaintances will proceed in the new year. The couple is scheduled to go to
trial on Jan. 16 on criminal charges of possessing more than 100 pounds of
marijuana, as well as conspiracy charges.
"She doesn't fully understand our doctrine," Dan Quaintance said Tuesday of
Herrera's decision. "This is very upsetting to the members of our church. It
was quite a holiday present."
The Quaintances face up to 40 years each in prison if they are convicted as
charged. They expect to appeal the decision.
The couple was arrested with 172 pounds of marijuana on Feb. 22 in
Lordsburg, N.M., just seven days before the U.S. Supreme Court ruled
unanimously that a small religious group based in Santa Fe that combines
Christianity and American Indian practices could use hallucinogenic tea in
its ceremonies.
The tea, called hoasca, contains dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, known for its
hallucinogenic properties.
Members of the O Centro Espirita Beneficiente Uniao Do Vegetal, or UDV, said
using the hallucinogenic tea during worship helped them gain union with God.
The Supreme Court based its decision on the 1993 Religious Freedom
Restoration Act, which says the government needs to justify any action that
would substantially burden people from practicing their faith.
Citing the UDV case, the Quaintances asked that their charges be dismissed.
A three-day hearing on their request was held in Albuquerque in August, and
the Quaintances had been awaiting a decision from Herrera since then.
The U.S. Constitution contains no legally recognizable definition of
religion, but courts still can apply a test of sincerity.
In her decision, Herrera cited evidence she said indicates the Quaintances
created the church to justify their belief that marijuana should be
legalized. "Defendants cannot avoid prosecution for illegal conduct simply
by transforming their lifestyle choices into a 'reli-gion,' " she wrote.
The Church of Cognizance, which leaders say has "monasteries" in members'
homes nationwide, has a simple motto: "With good thoughts, good words and
good deeds, we honor marijuana; as the teacher, the provider, the
protector."
The Quaintances don't grow their sacrament but, rather, say they rely on
donations of it, which they pick up from church "couriers." That's what they
say they were about to do when they were arrested.
The pair say they founded their Church of Cognizance in Pima, Ariz., in
1991.
A "declaration of religious sentiment" on behalf of the Church of Cognizance
was filed with the Graham County Recorder's Office in 1994. Until their
arrest this year, the Quaintances had not faced any criminal charges related
to their church.
Free on bond, the Quaintances continue to live in Pima, about 90 miles
northeast of Tucson, though they remain under court supervision and must
submit to regular urine tests. Prior to their arrest, the couple say they
smoked or ingested marijuana daily.
In court documents, prosecutors from the U.S. Attorney's Office said the
Quaintances are "obsessed and focused on marijuana," and Dan Quaintance's
writings about his worship are "disjointed, poorly supported, illogical
ramblings."
Dan Quaintance, 54, said the church has 40 to 50 members in Arizona, but he
cannot estimate how many there are nationwide. Members must be 18 to join.
Since the case became public this summer, more people have been inquiring
about joining the church, he said.
Both Dan and Mary, who is 51, stepped down as leaders of the church
following their arrests. But the couple hope to one day resume what they
view as their worship.
"Normally on Christmas we would have shared the herb with our friends and
church members," Dan Quaintance said.
"Instead we had presents. We were a little empty. ... What's happening to us
is a clear violation of the U.S. Constitution. It's clear we are sincere.

Source: http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/162069



Now let's start;

Quote:
In court documents, prosecutors from the U.S. Attorney's Office said the
Quaintances are "obsessed and focused on marijuana," and Dan Quaintance's
writings about his worship are "disjointed, poorly supported, illogical
ramblings."


"disjointed, poorly supported, illogical
ramblings."


So according to that judge, when people believe in dudes that walk on water and do a lot of other "miracles" he thinks that is totally logical and those are not poorly supported ramblings? People who believe that there is a "devil" dwelling on this earth to seduce people into acting evil are totally rational thinking people?

"Says founders lack a 'sincere' religious belief"

According to who????!!

I live in Amsterdam, Netherlands and have no fear of being procecuted for my beliefs whatsoever, would that judge say about me that I "cannot avoid prosecution for illegal conduct simply by transforming my lifestyle choices into a 'religion?"

That court decision is utterly insulting everyone who practises "the old ways", I challenge that Judge to try and pull that bullshit on me, Judge Herrera, if you read this, try and have the frikkin guts to tell ME that my beliefs are not sincere, your decision doesn't prove anything but the fact that you are quite uncivilized and ignorant for historical facts.

Now to put things in the right perspective;

For most people who do not share someone's religious beliefs, they could think about those who do believe as being....

"obsessed and focused on Jesus" <-- sincere
"obsessed and focused on Ron Hubbard" <-- sincere (This religion (Scientology) receives US government funds for anti drug propaganda programs.)
"obsessed and focused on God" <-- sincere
"obsessed and focused on Maria" <-- sincere
"obsessed and focused on Allah" <--sincere
"obsessed and focused on Buddha" <-- sincere
"obsessed and focused on Shiva" <-- regarded as sincere, although Cannabis use as a holy sacrament is part of this ancient Hindu religion.
"obsessed and focused on marijuana" <-- not sincere according to Judge Herrera
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RevErikM
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said before, Dan could not clearly explain himself in a way that would allow anyone to sympathize with his religious beliefs or make them believe that he was sincere albeit completely looney. Most sincere religious people come across as complete nuts or just weirdos to those outside of their religion.

The difference between the "focused and obsessed" with marijuana as compared to the others, is the light of the "focused and obsessed" - they came across as being only focused and obsessed on consuming cannabis, not as focused and obsessed on it being a deity and them surrendering their spirit/soul/metaphysical essence to the god-spirit within the plant. There was no attempt to convey how they attempt to reach the spirit when they consume, instead, their consumption only came across as a wholly physical act for wholly physical reasons - this is why they were shot down by the judge.

Let's look at this situation from a different point of view and say the controversy was over martial arts.

If I were to explain myself as:
"Martial Arts has been used for centuries as a means to spiritual attainment. By losing yourself in the act of practicing forms or combatting another practitioner, you are able to achieve enlightenment and merge with the Void to find out who you were before you were born. By practicing this wholly physical action with willful intention to enhance my spiritual body, I am able to shatter the illusions of the physical world and unite with my true self."

Now, if I were to explain myself as:
"I practice Martial Arts because it makes me a better person. It makes me feel good, and teaches me stuff. I feel kind of spiritual when I'm in fight-mode and I'm, you know, hitting the bag or blocking someone else's punches. Martials Arts is sacred to me because of this stuff."

Which one of those explanations do you feel better convey the message that Martial Arts to me is a sacred, religious practice in an argument that I absolutely need it for spiritual purposes?

If you look at the evidence in front of the judge, there is absolutely NO WAY the judge could have honestly found what they explained to be a sincere religious practice. The reason the judge wouldn't dismiss the case is because they failed to properly explain themselves - it's not because the judge was trying to be a bigot, or deny someone their rights - Dan came across as a total fraud with a poorly thought up excuse to hide behind the First Amendment. As I do not know Dan, I can't vouch for that - but to be honest, he would've been better off saying that he's commanded religiously upon threat of eternal damnation to fight injustice and he's fighting it in this case by constantly smoking cannabis and supplying others who would also smoke it. Until they are able to explain how the sacred ganja allows them to transcend this muckish physical existence and allows them to grow spiritually and stop explaining it all in completely physical ways, it won't come across as religion.

You really can't hate on the judge here - she is trying to be fair, but she can't possibly find in favor of Dan based on his current explanations.
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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
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Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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Location: Amsterdam

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I do blaim that judge for not considering the historical fact that litterly millions of people on this planet use Cannabis for spiritual purposes, to feel "connected" with "the universe" and experience a spiritual awareness in a way and a level that they can not reach without the use.

The fact that Dan isn't good at wording his religious beliefs doesn't make his beliefs less sincere in my book. It just makes the Judge look ignorant if she can't see this. I know Dan since years and I know he is sincere with his beliefs.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, let's hope he is able to explain the metaphysical aspects better in his appeals than he was able to the first round up, or even better, explain himself to the jury and allow the jury to decide (though it's possible he may be blocked on presenting a religious defense to the jury, I believe I've read something about that happening before though I may be mistaken.) The only problem with taking the religious defense to the jury is some people in the jury will definately want to burn you for heretical practices, scream that you're going to hell, and attempt to convert you to what they follow that was fed to them by someone else.

Now, I don't want to give the impression that I'm against Dan and I think he's a fraud - my point in the last few posts on this issue is that his efforts of communication came across so poorly that it's hard for a total outsider (or anyone who's not sympathetic to the cause) to do anything more than dismiss his religious explanations as a sham. Coupled with that is the sheer quantity of cannabis he had, which is, with any religion, going to be an enormously difficult thing to attribute to religious practice.
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aeroplane
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Ferre, I'm with you 110%. These xtians ain't nothing more than a frickin' mirage. How long have these butt-f's been around? 1,000, maybe 2,000 years?

How long have us pagans been around? No less than 5,000 years. (And they've burned our toes in their unholy fires more than once I might add.) We've outlasted them this long, we will continue to outlast them.

Period.

As you read it, so be it.
Spells sew shut unholy mouths and confuse the stupid.
Spew only crap from unholy holes.
As nonsense flows like waterfalls.
As you read it, so be it.
Let these words be read and deeds undone.
Bind those who's ignorance blinds the blind.
As I mote it, so be it.
Amen.
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Funny thing is that they require NON-Christians to explain their believe system to American court in order to be judged on 'sincerity' by, no doubt, a Christian judge.

THIS is exactly why according to international laws, courts have NO JURISDICTION to judge someone's sincerity and religion.

All Dan had to do was point this out, instead of starting to defend himself and his religion towards a system that has been designed by the very same people who have been persecuting his (and ours) religion since centuries.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferre wrote:
The Funny thing is that they require NON-Christians to explain their believe system to American court in order to be judged on 'sincerity' by, no doubt, a Christian judge.

THIS is exactly why according to international laws, courts have NO JURISDICTION to judge someone's sincerity and religion.

All Dan had to do was point this out, instead of starting to defend himself and his religion towards a system that has been designed by the very same people who have been persecuting his (and ours) religion since centuries.


Amen to that! claps
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spoke with Brother Alan (Pantagruel) today and he felt just as insulted by this decision as I do and thinking about this situation I decided to write an email to Judge Herrera to let her know that the world is watching and not amuzed. Here's the email I wrote:

Quote:
Sent: 29 December 2006 18:41
To: herrerachambers@nmcourt.fed.us
Subject: Important! Regarding the case against Dan and Mary Quaintance
Importance: High

Dear Judge Herrera,

I write you to inform you that your decision in the case against Dan and Mary Quintance is highly insultive towards my own religion.

You dare to judge those people’s ‘sincerity’ based on your unability to understand their believe system and even pushes the insult further with stating that you think that their believe system is only ‘designed’ to avoid procecution.

How can you judge something you don’t understand?
How can you judge a religion? According to international, and even American laws, you do not have this jurisdiction.

Reason for my distress about your decision is the fact that in the Netherlands, where NO fear for procecution exists whatsoever for the use of Cannabis, there are many people who use Cannabis for religious/spiritual reasons and I am one of them.

Further, the use of Cannabis as religious sacrament is historically documented for centuries already.

Are you a Christian or a member of one of the many Abrahamic religions? That would explain your lack of understanding, your will to persecute the Quaintance family and your ignorance on the issue of Cannabis in religion, it would also explain your total lack of respect for a non-Christian, non-mainstream religion.

There are litterly millions of people on this earth who use Cannabis for spiritual reasons, those are not recreational users, if you can not understand those nuances I really wonder what made you a judge.

Your decision was based upon ignorance and the fact that you are not able to understand a religion that is not comparable with a ‘mainstream framework’, this does not make your decision a right one, it only shows that you don’t understand.

I wrote about this on the internet, you can find it here:
http://www.thc-ministry.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7827

In the Netherlands there are thousands of people who use Cannabis for religious/spiritual reasons, many of them members of THC Ministry, a ministry that mandates Cannabis as a sacrament, I dare you to tell me, and those people that our believe system is only designed to avoid procecution. You will be laughed at because there is no such fear in this country, sadly enough, the Quaintance family can’t laugh about your ridicule statements, they face 40 years in the American Goulach.

Regards,
Ferre van Beveren
www.thc-ministry.net
www.fucok.net

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of the focus on the posts here concerning the COC case was denial of their religious freedoms as outlined by the Founding Fathers of the United States of America in our Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. While many here believe that only (or not even) a cursory examination of their beliefs and practices should have been enough to prove their rights were violated, more steps had to be taken because of the legislation and beauracracy involved within cases such as this. There have been posts quoting other cases where the judges had found that it wasn't their place to judge the merits or flaws of a religion in comparison with other religions, and no judgement should be placed upon the overall merit of the belief system no matter how fantastic (seemingly from fantasy) the beliefs are, the judge does have to determine to the best of his/her ability whether they are truly dealing with a religion, be it new, old, an offshoot of a popular religion, an unorganized(containing no formal hierarchy) or if what they are dealing with is an elaborate construct in order to render one "immune" to prosecution under certain types of legislation. (Legislation that I do not give my consent for, neither do I consider it to be within the proscribed powers allotted to government by the chains of the Constitution in this case.)

From my perspective, there is absolutely no doubt that Dan and Mary absolutely worship the drug marijuana. Allow me to reiterate my view on this - the drug marijuana and the purely physical effect it has upon them, not the plant cannabis. Their absolute devotion to marijuana as a drug is unquestionable and is evidenced in the impact they have upon the judge and the prosecution in this case. There is no doubt to me that they hold the drug marijuana in higher esteem than their personal well-being, or their liberty. But I am highly doubtful that they worship the cannabis plant because they don't grow it - and this would be a major part in worshipping the cannabis plant as a deity. If they did consider the cannabis plant to be a deity, they would grow it so they could nurture it and bestow gifts upon it to the absolute best of their ability. It can't be said that they merely didn't have the resources to even attempt to grow the plant so they could worship it - they have four acres of land for outside planting, and it's not difficult to grow this sacred teacher in a room in the house; you can even grow plants to maturity inside of a gutted computer tower with very little effort into the construction of the container.

Now, I'm sure a lot of people are wondering why I seem so harsh and critical of the Quaintances and seem to be lacking in support of them, and some of you are probably doubtful to my support of the religious freedom cause. In an explanation of this, I have to call things like I see them. It is my gut instinct that they are attempting to deceive us to gain our support and gain protection for their worship of the high. I am unable to believe that Dan received his practices through a spiritual source (and I have conferred with my familiars on this) - rather, Dan composed these beliefs of himself, through his own cognition, and because of a belief that establishing a religious base would offer him protection to worship marijuana against legal persecution.

Casting aside his compilations of texts and taking his own testimony into account, I would say Dan's true beliefs are:

*He loves and worships marijuana beyond probably all other things.

*He feels that consuming marijuana enables him a more peaceful and happy existence on this earth, and at times allows him to reflect and achieve greater understandings of and better modes of handling physical circumstances.

*He believes that his desire to consume and possess marijuana injures no one, but rather brings people together by sharing the experience of consuming marijuana with them.

*He believes that people should be free to consume marijuana as they see fit, when they see fit, and how they see fit because he can only see positive results from the consumption of marijuana.

These beliefs could certainly be the basis for a religion, I can most certainly see a seed there, but the trappings he's attempted to clothe these beliefs in do not fit - and this is where the falsity stands out. There's nothing wrong with picking and choosing from various paths what works for you, in fact, Bruce Lee was a major proponent of this; however, Dan's picking and choosing weren't what worked for him religiously in his belief structure and complimented it, instead, they were what he deemed to be spiritual support from ancient religions that supported his current traditions. His collage of writings which supported this was also left flexible, so he could add in more support from any other religion that he discovered or sprang up in order to prove his point - that his worship of marijuana should be considered religious because other people considered it to be religious, and it being religious should offer him some protection from persecution over his beliefs.

If marijuana were legal, would Dan claim his consumption as a religious necessity? I would say not, because the man is not a charlatan, rather, he's a target of bigotry and hatred because people are intolerant, cruel, and controlling, and these people have guns and lots of friends with guns, clubs, flashlights, handcuffs, and nice boxes made out of cement and steel.

Now let's move on to another portion of Dan's case. Why was he moving so much marijuana? I'm going to start by quoting Dan from his forums:

http://coc.enlightener.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=forum&board=Welcome&op=display&num=11

"Even though the Rastafarians have lot's of decisions in the higher courts recognizing their rights to use Marijuana in religion it seems the Rasta’s went just a little to far in doing things, but in reality they just didn't explain the necessity of such action in the lower courts or they in reality did not get enough issues surrounding their mode of worship out in the lower courts. Once the matter is in the upper levels of appeal where no more evidence may be entered the justices have to go on what is in front of them and thereby make rulings like Guam v. Guerrero, where the court ruled they had the rights to use marijuana but nothing demonstrated they had to smuggle it as a function of their religion, or in Kansas v. McBride they didn't need to grow 80 some odd plants to practice their religion... there was nothing in the lower courts mentioned why they needed to grow so many plants, and of course we have the early 9th Circuit opinion under the RFRA the Rasta’s didn't need to sell it to practice their religion. Even though the Peyotist (same drug schedule) have licensed dealers in Texas that roadmen purchase from and sell to the individual adherents of the peyote religion, all with the blessing of Statutes protecting their actions; and then there is the churches with their tithe for the wine and bread they have to foot the bill for, but we are expected to purchase and then give away our sacrament, the herb (oops we're not even supposed to give it away)..dah dah dah"

So we know by reading this that Dan was quite sure that his moving such a large quantity of cannabis wasn't going to fly under religious protection, and that he was also angry that other religions were afforded monetary compensation for their use of sacraments, but he was supposed "to purchase and then give away our sacrament." This tells me right here that Dan's assertation of his large load of ganja for free to be distributed for free is a total sham. If he insists this in court, he's committing perjury - but then again, not only is he under threat of death, but also his extended family if he reveals his source (information gleaned again from familiars.) I cannot support him primarily because of this untruthfulness on his part - though I can sympathize with his reasoning and reasons for being so untruthful. I'd lie in court too if I was told my grandchildren's fingers would be removed one at a time and fed to wild animals as well if I ratted them out.

My entire point on this is, before you get all bent out of shape at the judge and scream and rant about loss of first amendment rights, you really need to take a step back and look at the entire situation. And in truth, if you really need to ran and scream about something, it's about the unconstitutional Controlled Substances Act and the out-of-control DEA - I write to members of Congress a lot about ending these, and I never get a response. Don't hate on the judge, she's not being a bigot or being prejudiced - though I can't say the same of the calloused prosecutor in this case.

And Dan, when you read this, man, you really need to be straight with us. I'm here for you, I can help you, I speak with the spirits and I can help you communicate with them as well. I feel for you dude, but I think that even you feel like you stepped out of bounds this time, and if you keep on this road, you're going to be hurting more people than just yourself and the members of the CoC. Send me a message if you want to talk.
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to read the full verdict in this case, I've downloaded it as a word document here:

UNITED-STATES-VS-Q.doc

BTW, I must say, you do make a few valid points Brother Eric.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Brother Ferre, my point here isn't to enfuriate anyone, it's just to get everyone to take a good look at the situation without the normal filters we'd have on due to our personal viewpoints. There's more to the situation than has come to light thus far, more than will probably ever come to light.
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Ferre
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear ya.

What troubles me though, is that the American court, in general, has the opinion that people who use Cannabis for religious/spiritual reasons are "attempting to avoid procecution".

People like me, who live in places where there is no such thing is being procecuted for using Cannabis and DO use Cannabis in a spiritual/religious setting because it's how we 'connect', feel insulted by that attitude.

I must also say that for me personally I don't see the need to interwave all sorts of pre-abrahamic and abrahamic scriptures and stories into the motivation for my own beliefs, my personal believe system is shamanic based and for me Cannabis is a guide which I use amongst other plant-guides to reach a state of meditation in which I can connect with and travel in the metaphisical world.

Hehhe, I don't know how to explain it any better either.

Anyway, I'm glad I don't live in the USA, with the witch hunt still going on over there I feel a lot better knowing I grew up in a country that has abandoned the inquisition a couple of centuries ago.

Looking at it from here the USA is a tad too barbaric and uncivilized for my likings.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I agree with you there...the USA is definately barbaric and tyrannic. I'd actually like to seek political asylum in Holland based on persecution for my religious beliefs, but I can't because my wife won't leave the states. I currently am extremely limited in what type of rituals I can perform due to the possible impact it could have on my children in terms of their home and family (and therefore their spiritual foundation) being destroyed by these bigots. So, I'm stuck with declining spiritual strength, which isn't as bad as injuring the spirits of my children and angering the spirits I can now call allies by putting them(my children) at risk.

As far as sharing ganja and the other sacred teachers with others to connect, in my book I wrote about a ritual specific to that matter, the Communion. In the Communion, you call upon (or summon up, depending upon the spiritual prowess of those present) the spirit of the Sacred Teacher to bind your group together to greater experience how we are all spiritually One, not just the humans present, but also every material thing in this plane of existence.

As I've explained to some friends of mine in South Florida who were previously only avid consumers of ganja for the sake of consumption, their act of consumption together (they hated to smoke alone) was a spiritual thing because the ganja spirit was working through them to help them see their spiritual unity to each other and to all other things around them. In honor of this revelation (which I did not show them, I just aided them in the realization they already knew this to begin with,) they now always say praise to the spirit of the plant when they prepare it for smoking and pass their blunts around the circle the first time before engaging in their bonding discussions.

Something that I was curious about considering the Meyers test, as I am a Shaman, is that Shamans don't prescribe specific articles of clothing to be worn, or to not be worn - though in rituals and ceremonies, we tend to keep artifacts with us that we have charged with energy or that contain spirits who would normally have no access to the Material. We also wouldn't (generally speaking) point out a building or grounds and say that it's sacred unless it's been energetically prepared, we would normally say it could be made sacred. And for me in particular, there is no such thing as a "sacred text" because language is an absolutely horrendous conveyor of experience. I am highly curious as to how a judge would rule upon that were I to be the one standing in court.
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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.


Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7171
Location: Amsterdam

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear ya. As we share the same believe system I really wonder about the same things.

Hehhe, As a Shaman, I can't even say that I "believe", in fact I do not "believe",.. I KNOW.

...but there's only one way for me that I know off to "prove" this to any human or judge and that's taking them on a trip and guide them, which, as you know, is a process that takes several sessions and which needs an open mind from the person I would take on this trip.

I doubt that someone who worked at a law office and was appointed by the Bush administration as a judge will come close to that open mind.

Laughing
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RevErikM
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Joined: 17 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definately there. I won't even guide a person until I feel they're able to perceive and motivate the ether on their own without the Sacred Teachers, because it can be a horrifying (and sometimes disastrous) experience when you suddenly find you've been immersed in it the entire time and it flexes with your emotions and Will. Communing with others is a different story though, as the goal and direction of the experience is completely different, and is better suited for those who have had no practice with spiritual energies.

To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience with acting as a guide for other people, though I've journeyed into the 5th Plane as a group with a few other people before, because people who come to me and ask me for lessons usually get pissed off at me because they either think I'm mocking them or asking the impossible only a short ways into the training. If I'm ever able to travel to your land, I'd appreciate it if you would guide me on a journey, so I could learn from your technique.
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