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Becoming An "Ordained Minister"
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Should we Ordain our own or Let someone else do it?
Ordain our own
94%
 94%  [ 16 ]
Let someone else do it
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 17

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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
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Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it is now, people with altier motives can become ordained via ULC and join us just the same.

I'm not worried much about 'people with altier motives' joining, simply because I believe that those people can be found in every single organisation on this earth and as it stands for us, our tenets are clear, when people 'fake' their commitment that's their problem, not ours.
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RogerChristie
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.


Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 1062
Location: Hilo, Kingdom of Hawai'i

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: One more thing... Reply with quote

I can imagine our personalized THC Ministry ordainment soon comes with a mandatory trip to the big island and a week or so at our Greenhouse Chapel and our oceanfront Sanctuary. I think it deserves to be so much more than just having a piece of paper. Anyone interested?

Roger


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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.


Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7137
Location: Amsterdam

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would make being ordained with the THC Ministry something that is only preserved for those who can affort to do that. We would become a religion for rich people only.

For many Europeans and people from non American countries, it also means they have to allow the USA government to take their fingerprints because the US government demands the fingerprints from every non American tourist who enters their borders.

Me personally I refuse to visit Fascist regimes and America is one of the last places on earth that I would go to.

Too bad that Hawai'i is located in the USA brother. It makes it a lot less attractive for anyone outside the US to visit it and it is even a mental barrier that can not be crossed for many.
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RevErikM
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Joined: 17 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah dude, Hawaii's too far and too expensive for me at this time - my family and I have too many other concerns at the moment to be able to take a trip out there for any reason, unless we were moving there, which we also can't do at this time because I'm working on a degree in biology at the present.
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Rev. Jack
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Cannabis Sacrament Minister


Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 242

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Namaste Roger and Ferre
I like the idea in principle. Ferre makes good points about the practicality.
Perhaps Hawaii, Amsterdam and Missouri and some day Vegas Laughing
I can see the headline now "Come to Sin City to find GOD" roflol
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David
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: One more thing... Reply with quote

RogerChristie wrote:
I can imagine our personalized THC Ministry ordainment soon comes with a mandatory trip to the big island and a week or so at our Greenhouse Chapel and our oceanfront Sanctuary. I think it deserves to be so much more than just having a piece of paper. Anyone interested?

Roger


@@@

Roger,

Please write to me, I am trying to arrange this with Ferre for July 2008. I want to be ordained but like no ordaining you have done before. I can't wait for the mandatory trip, would these be Hawaiian Mushrooms, hmm nice
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Nachtschattenreich
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Cannabis Sacrament Minister


Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 509
Location: Franconia, Germany, Europe, Old World

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am one of those who saw this vote and abstained. I think this is a genuinely open question, and that choice I could not find on the list.

When an organisation bestows a title it should be clear which continuity is it that title is anchored in? E.g. when the Pope ordains a Bishop it is the continuity of the Apostles that this decision adds to. An individual entering the Cannabis path would not necessarily identify with some projectable historical continuity, so the only meaningful title that can be systematically bestowed is one related to the respective species that opens up a specific path. You can successfully encounter (just to make one example) amanita muscaria, and then try to find a formal expression that may communicate your achievement of the skills you had to show in it. Species names do form a hierarchy among themselves, while any mimicry of classical spiritual constructions at this point would be a source of misunderstandings over your portefeuille of teacher plants.
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RevErikM
Shaman
Shaman


Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 233

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nachtschattenreich wrote:
I am one of those who saw this vote and abstained. I think this is a genuinely open question, and that choice I could not find on the list.

When an organisation bestows a title it should be clear which continuity is it that title is anchored in? E.g. when the Pope ordains a Bishop it is the continuity of the Apostles that this decision adds to. An individual entering the Cannabis path would not necessarily identify with some projectable historical continuity, so the only meaningful title that can be systematically bestowed is one related to the respective species that opens up a specific path. You can successfully encounter (just to make one example) amanita muscaria, and then try to find a formal expression that may communicate your achievement of the skills you had to show in it. Species names do form a hierarchy among themselves, while any mimicry of classical spiritual constructions at this point would be a source of misunderstandings over your portefeuille of teacher plants.


Your writing brings new light to the phrase "Cannabis Sacrament Minister" to my mind. In viewing this with the 4 different types of rituals I wrote about in my book, a "Cannabis Sacrament Minister" would be one who is regarded as capable of and experienced in leading others through the Communion style ritual with the Sacred Teacher Plant cannabis. As the spiritual use of this specific Sacred Teacher is the main focus behind the THC Ministry, I would say that the ability to lead others through a Communion (Communion to me being sharing the sacrament with others in order to gain a greater understanding of our spiritual unity with the Spirit of Cannabis being the guide to the experience of viewing all things as being One through interconnectedness and inseparability,) should be a requirement for ordination through the THC Ministry. It shouldn't be enough that you are able to participate in a Communion and view the glory of all things being spiritual AND one; you should also be able to help guide others to viewing this splendor with the assistance of the Sacred Teacher, cannabis.

Other titles could be bestowed with or after ordination based upon each individual's abilities as is needed within the Ministry to keep it organized, and to direct people to where they need to go for certain types of spiritual assistance, such as the title Oracle for one who is regarded as being adept at sharing spiritual advice in coordination with the use of the Sacred Teachers, or the title Dream-Walker for one who has displayed they are adept at guiding others on journeys through the non-material planes via the gateways offered by the various Sacred Teachers. Other titles could be also conferred for showing adeptness at cultivating the material bodies these spirit-teachers greet us with on the physical plane, or titles such as Witness for showing adeptness or perseverance at explaining and defending our beliefs to those who do not share them.

A blanket ordination just because someone is interested in the ministry, shares our beliefs, or just practices as we do would be counter-productive both to the spiritual growth of the ministry and defending ourself from bigotry and oppression.
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RogerChristie
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.


Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 1062
Location: Hilo, Kingdom of Hawai'i

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:03 am    Post subject: 'Sincerity' plays a big part, plus ... Reply with quote

Ferre wrote, "I'm not worried much about 'people with altier motives' joining, simply because I believe that those people can be found in every single organisation on this earth and as it stands for us, our tenets are clear, when people 'fake' their commitment that's their problem, not ours."

Aloha. According to U.S. law precedent in "State of Hawaii v. Blake" there's a test for a person to qualify for a religious exemption to use Cannabis sacrament. It's called the Andrews Test:

http://www.thc-ministry.org/BLAKE/PC-stateversusblake3.jpg

Sincerity as a spiritual user of Cannabis is the foundation of it all. Sincerity can sometimes be simply defined as exhibiting good manners and respect while under law enforcement pressure. I'm OK with the sincerity factor. So far I've seen it work for - and against - people.

"when people 'fake' their commitment that's their problem, not ours."

Part of what we're discussing here concerns our members being truthful and/or capable according to our standards, and part of our discussion needs to be centered on what are 'our standards'. We get to define exactly what that commitment is. What is it? What do you want it to be?

"As a THC Minister in good standing I promise to ... "
"On my honor as a THC Ministry Practitioner I will ... "

Do we have a standard, a test, an oath? Should we?

Is this about being the best we can be, or just skating around the legal system and doing whatever we feel like in order to be safe, a mixture of the two, or something else entirely?

When I was first ordained by the ULC in 1972 I thought it was a joke so I didn't do anything with it. I went looking high and low for Cannabis freedom, doing all kinds of things like running for Mayor of Denver, Colorado in 1979, joining NORML, suing the State of Hawaii in 1989, co-owning a rocking hemp store here in Pahoa in 1992, etc. I had the Cannabis freedom ticket all along! It wasn't the fault of ULC that I didn't understand my 'commitment' and the enormous rights and benefits I had as a newly ordained minister, it was mine.

When people fake their commitment it actually CAN be our problem. We're supposed to catch it when people fake or lie in order to receive the right we have so that we're more respected and effective; by those who depend on us, judge us, support us or oppose us. It makes us better administrators to have discernment and standards for our group.

In U.S. Federal Court a few years ago a member of ours was facing '40 to life' for cultivation, very serious stuff. He wasn't able to pass the sincerity test while in court. I like and respect the man, but under the pressure of his situation he was pissed-off and he showed it. Not good for him an didn't look good for us as I was there to vouch for him.

"What part of you is the Minister?" was the final, almost mocking question by the Judge to the defendant. He went quiet and his Motion to Dismiss on religious grounds was denied leaving him with zero defense to the charge against him. A plea agreement was made and he went to Federal prison for five years, expected to be out in three with good behavior.

Yes, the system is immoral, illegal and un-constitutional in its application of Cannabis prohibition. True, however, I still know that we can make it through the narrow gate of Judgement into the heavenly garden inside where we have the RIGHT to the tree of life. Mahalo ke akua.

Sincerity. It's a beautiful thing.

All the best to you,

Roger




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RevErikM
Shaman
Shaman


Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 233

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think having an oath would be a bad idea at all, and it would more than likely be beneficial according to how it was worded and how well those who swear to it actually understand it.

Maybe something like, "As a THC-Ministry Member, I swear upon my existence and my perception of the Almighty to not restrict others in their path for the Ultimate Truth and the Divine, as I recognize I am unable to dictate to others how they will perceive the Divine and how best to approach it, with the realization that the Divine is the same no matter how we should individually find best to approach it; I also swear to respect the Sacred Teachers, to cultivate their physical existence so others may be able to pursue the Divine through them, and to share with others only when motivated by Divine Guidance and never for the sake of material profit, for I recognize Greed to be the main source of human suffering, and to willfully encourage human suffering is abhorred by me and detrimental to my relationship with the Divine. This I swear upon my very existence, may my oath be upheld by my perception of the Almighty, and so shall it be."

(Ooh, I like that...it's always nice, from a writer's perspective, when you can write something down, then look at it and say, "Yeah...that says exactly what I wanted to say." Most of the time I'm more like "close...but slightly off," but that oath I wrote basically sums up my personal religious creed. Let me know how it fits for yours.)
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Nachtschattenreich
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Cannabis Sacrament Minister


Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 509
Location: Franconia, Germany, Europe, Old World

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. I have seen individuals describing themselves as shamans suddenly cutting off the described Cannabis Communion for no apparent reason. And not because they would have stopped putting efforts into their way of life. If such ordinations stand for reliability they are of a comprehensible worth.

Regarding the so-called Andrews Test, who defines how the examination "whether or not the activity interfered with by the state was motivated by and rooted in a sincerely held religious belief?" Of course everybody knows what spiritual sincerity is, but how do you run a bureaucracy to verify it? Is it done with these spooky scientology suitcases? We have authorities test whether candidate A or B is a well-prepared applicant for citizenship, but who does really want state authorities to decide whether candidate A or B is a wellrooted child of God? God is not a head of state for these matters.
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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.


Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7137
Location: Amsterdam

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The American government is funny. They invent all kind of tests for NON CHRISTIAN religions to conform to while their own, and international laws don't give them that jurisdiction.

By obeying/conforming to their rediculous and illegal tests I don't feel that we would be serving our community.

Meyers test, Andrews test, what more tests will they invent to keep *some* religions from enjoying their human universal rights eh?
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Brother Adam
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Cannabis Sacrament Minister


Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferre wrote:
The American government is funny. They invent all kind of tests for NON CHRISTIAN religions to conform to while their own, and international laws don't give them that jurisdiction.

By obeying/conforming to their rediculous and illegal tests I don't feel that we would be serving our community.

Meyers test, Andrews test, what more tests will they invent to keep *some* religions from enjoying their human universal rights eh?


This is what I keep wondering. If a christian says they found god, nobody questions it. If a pagan says they have found god in a plant, they have to be tested for sincerity. Mike Tyson found god in jail then tried to bite Hollyfield's ear off in his first fight.

Those tests are as dirty as ole Mike....
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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
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Location: Amsterdam

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the Gerin Oil, those Christians are addicted to that stuff. Apart from deluting their brains it's also a nasty killer and turns them into nasty killers as well.
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Nachtschattenreich
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Cannabis Sacrament Minister


Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Location: Franconia, Germany, Europe, Old World

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerin what? I recommend mint oil, if you want to beat nicotine on its own ground.

I can add an European perspective on the development of religion in America from the middle of the 19th century. There is an underlying assumption that America has to make its own way regardless whether we understand what exactly it is they are doing to themselves:

Quote:
Only in the North American states – at least, in some of them – does the Jewish question lose its theological significance and become a really secular question. Only where the political state exists in its completely developed form can the relation of the Jew, and of the religious man in general, to the political state, and therefore the relation of religion to the state, show itself in its specific character, in its purity. The criticism of this relation ceases to be theological criticism as soon as the state ceases to adopt a theological attitude toward religion, as soon as it behaves towards religion as a state – i.e., politically. Criticism, then, becomes criticism of the political state. At this point, where the question ceases to be theological, Bauer’s criticism ceases to be critical.

“In the United States there is neither a state religion nor a religion declared to be that of the majority, nor the predominance of one cult over another. The state stands aloof from all cults.” (Marie ou l’esclavage aux Etats-Unis, etc., by G. de Beaumont, Paris, 1835, p. 214)
Indeed, there are some North American states where “the constitution does not impose any religious belief or religious practice as a condition of political rights.” (op. cit., p. 225)

Nevertheless, “in the United States people do not believe that a man without religion could be an honest man.” (op. cit., p. 224)

Nevertheless, North America is pre-eminently the country of religiosity, as Beaumont, Tocqueville, and the Englishman Hamilton unanimously assure us. The North American states, however, serve us only as an example. The question is: What is the relation of complete political emancipation to religion? If we find that even in the country of complete political emancipation, religion not only exists, but displays a fresh and vigorous vitality, that is proof that the existence of religion is not in contradiction to the perfection of the state. Since, however, the existence of religion is the existence of defect, the source of this defect can only be sought in the nature of the state itself. We no longer regard religion as the cause, but only as the manifestation of secular narrowness. Therefore, we explain the religious limitations of the free citizen by their secular limitations. We do not assert that they must overcome their religious narrowness in order to get rid of their secular restrictions, we assert that they will overcome their religious narrowness once they get rid of their secular restrictions. We do not turn secular questions into theological ones. History has long enough been merged in superstition, we now merge superstition in history. The question of the relation of political emancipation to religion becomes for us the question of the relation of political emancipation to human emancipation.

Karl Marx: The Jewish Question (1843)

I was surprised to learn that in America the state has to reconstruct the religious affiliation of airpassengers from their food choices. While in America you may get a tax-saving scheme registered as a religion, in Germany your religious affiliation is a part of your tax record.
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